Not in the sense that I am speaking, or Paul. If that man cast out demons BECAUSE he thought he was earning his way to heaven (a work without love), then it was useless. A work, even to move mountains, is nothing without love. And so, casting out demons is nothing, without love.
Even in the sacramental system ( that as a protestant consider works) does not one expect that there are "graces" connected to correct participation? Is not those expectations God owing one for a correct choice or work or participation?
We receive graces ONLY because God promised that He would come to us through such contact. He promised that He would forgive our sins through the power of the Apostles. He promised that He would be our food to eat, our spiritual nourishment. Through the sacraments, we receive God’s graces to continue the journey. They are not works, but means of contacting the one we love.
I think we might agree that an unsaved man can not bring forth good fruit as he is not attached to the vine, so all his fruit would be bad to the Lord. correct?
Towards salvation, I think so. An unsaved atheist might do something “good”, even “loving” because he might be cooperating with God’s Law written in his heart at that time. But we are judged not by one deed, but our entire life. An atheist will not walk in faith in God. So in the end, I think we can agree.
Now on the wise man ... Is wisdom a gift of God or is it like love in your opinion , self generated?
I never said love was self-generated! We love because of Christ. Wisdom, like love, is a gift of the Holy Spirit, who blows where He wills, even to the unsaved. In the Scripture, for example, we find cases of God using pagans to do His will – like Cyrus of the Persians. It is the one who uses his gifts often (the Talents parable) who will be rewarded – not based on his own work, of course, but that he used the talents given to him by God.
Do we agree that there is a wisdom of the carnal man and a wisdom that is from God?
Yes, you have clearly shown that there is a worldly wisdom and a wisdom that follows the ways of God (which do not seem wise to the worldly – tongue twister!!). Carnal wisdom will not be of value, unless it happens to coincide with God’s will, such as those atheists who feel compelled to feed the hungry.
So the man that builds his house on a rock, does not do that out of his own wisdom, but out of the wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirits guidance.
I agree.
To whom was he speaking when he told us to love one and other? He was speaking to the converted, the saved , believers . That is because within them dwell the Love of God and the Holy Spirit.
I think Christ intended that we love everyone, even our enemies, don’t you agree? Doesn’t Christ say in the Sermon on the Mount:
You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:43-48)
In John 13, Jesus is merely giving us confirmation – that we KNOW we are His disciples IF we love – not because we make a one-time faith declaration. We KNOW we are disciples BECAUSE we love everyone – not just our friends.
The unsaved can not fulfill this command of Christ, only believers can .
It is potentially to all people, since Christ told His Apostles to teach and preach to the entire WORLD (Mat 28:20) ALL that He taught them. The Gospel is NOT meant just for the “saved”, although ONLY the saved will obey it!
Can you fulfill that command? Can you love ANYONE as He has loved ?
Not without Christ, I can’t. But if He abides in me, for example, through the Eucharist, I can love even my enemies and wish them the best for their sake.
See we are back to the issue of the love of God indwelling the believer versus the love of men that comes from a carnal heart. God sees no benefit to the "good works"coming from a carnal heart.. Scripture indicates that the only love that is pleasing to God is His love ( and his work).
And I agree that “carnal love” is not meritorious for salvation. I don’t think it is “sinful”, but it is not going to be of value. However, how does one judge whether it is carnal or spiritual love? I would say the inner motivation. If a person does something totally for the sake of the other (emulating Christ), then I would say that deed is inspired by the Spirit and is worthy to be counted as meritorious, even if done by a Muslim. Who are we to judge whom the ‘saved’ are? We just don’t know while alive on earth. If we judge a tree by its fruits, and we see a productive “tree”, we presume that the Spirit is working within that person, EVEN if that person doesn’t fit into our little religious definitions of who is saved (belong to “x” church or not).
I agree that our "judgment" of the fruit is temporal and not eternal. There are many evil persons that come to Christ in faith on their death beds. But that does not mean that we are not to make judgments in the here and now. Seeing a man that is a pimp, that denies God should cause us to present the gospel to him. If we do not judge that the man would be lost should he die that night, we fail to follow the great commandment. Failure to see the man you are about to get into a business contract with is a thief and a liar and a non believer cause us to deny the words of Christ that we not be unequally yoked.
Well said. We just shouldn’t jump to conclusions about another person.
May I ask why you believe the gift of discernment is listed in the gifts of the indwelling Holy Spirit if we are to hold all men as "the same"?
I am not saying that all men are the same, just that we shouldn’t “hate” others because we “think” they are of the “unsaved”. We don’t know WHO is unsaved, really. The Gift of Discernment, I think, is not so much about judging other people’s status with God, but determining the correct path to take – “what is God’s will for us in this particular event that is happening to me?”. That is what discernment is.
When you say that we will be 'judged" on our faith working through love" are you talking about judgment to salvation or damnation or judgment for rewards ?
I am not aware of ANYWHERE in Scripture of a place that talks about judgment as receiving lesser rewards. It always seems to be about either entering into eternal bliss, or not entering into eternal bliss. Regarding judgment, we are judged based on how well we used the talents God gave us. We are judged how well we used the Spirit’s gifts. We are judged how well we loved, BECAUSE we abided in Christ. Basically, we are judged because we trusted in our Father and cooperated with His Will for us, not because of anything we did ALONE.
As a mother, you might appreciate this analogy…
Say you and your two year old daughter are going to bake cookies. You include her because you love her, not because you need her. You “let” her mix the batter, or place the batter on the cookie sheets. You do this together, a work of love, not because she is earning anything. You enjoy being with her, doing it together. You don’t CARE if she is not needed to make the cookies. That is not the purpose of the activity. And when Daddy comes home and your daughter says “look, Daddy, I made cookies”, would you get upset? Would you say “How dare you say you made the cookies? You are stealing my glory and honor and praise due me! You can do nothing alone!” Of course not. And this is what is going on between God and us. We really CAN say “I made the cookies”, although technically, I couldn’t have done it without the Spirit. It is a work of love. God deeply desires to be with us and work with us, now and in eternal heaven.
Does that make more sense? This is the Catholic point of view on “works” and cooperation with God.
Scripture on that please? {being saved by Baptism}
“Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3: 4-5)
“Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? 38But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call” (Acts 2: 37-39)
“He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned” (Mark 16:16)
why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. (Acts 22:16)
For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:2-4)
There are another half dozen or so, but this is enough.
And that says what about needing to do works to be saved? Paul later says what he meant by that : 1Cr 2:4, Rom 1:16
Well, of course, our love IS a power of God. Wouldn’t you say that a person who is able to love in the face of persecution and despair is displaying the power of God? Isn’t God’s Power shown the greatest during our weakness?
James teaches that if there are no works there is no saving faith. He is addressing those that may have a profession of faith, yet do not have saving faith in Christ. He does not say that if there is works they give you faith, rather that the works of God come out of your faith in Christ. This book was written to the saved,he was teaching them not how to be saved, but how the world will know that they are Christians.
Pretty much, although I would say that our “works of love” that display our faith come from the Spirit, not our faith. Faith is like getting to first base. Because we get to first doesn’t mean we will score a run. It is only the first step in an ongoing journey.
As I have pointed out works that are pleasing to God are the works He ordains and does through us. It is HE that makes our works worthy not us.
I agree. But let us not forget our “part” in the “work”. At a given moment, we have a choice – to do a good deed or not. We are not irresistibly forced to do something good. Thus, it is OUR good deed (mine and Christ working within me. Without Him, I couldn’t do it, and without me, He allows the good deed to go undone).
Abraham was justified before men when he placed his only son on the altar, they were able to see his faith, and the story is still told how it was he trusted God and had faith in God to keep His promise.
There was no one with Abraham to see that. Read the story more carefully. The servants stayed behind. The test was for Abraham. That way, after the fact, he KNEW that he did God’s will. He KNEW he was justified. It was not for the sake of other men to see, but for Abraham HIMSELF. Of course, God already knew.
So then it is your position that if one does not do wrks one loses their salvation? Are the works then for Gods glory or your eternal salvation? Are they serving God or a means to an end?
I hope by the time you get this far, you will see that “my” (Catholic) position is that we must continue to walk in faith. We must continue to cooperate with the graces (talents) that God gave/gives us. We must show our faith through love. If we don’t love, we aren’t saved for heaven. The love we show has several purposes, I suppose. First, it gives glory to God. It also shows Christ to the world. It brings others the truth. Of course, it brings us to fulfillment of our destiny, which even begins in THIS world (as Christ came to bring life, and to live it even today, to the fullest). Our love also brings witness to the world of the truth of God’s Gospel. And of course, finally, it shows we are of Christ.
Indeed the elect will persevere, not in their own strength or power or works, but by the grace of God .
Agree
…Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity—that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21–28; 5:1–11)?
Yes, there is nothing I can do alone. My sins deserve eternal punishment. By the grace of God, I can be saved.
Indeed we have much agreement. So much so that i must ask you, is one saved by faith or faith and works? If by faith and works, mustn't the faith proceed the works? If our love and works flow out of the indwelling Holy Spirit, must that not mean that the faith has saved us and made us a worthy home for the Holy Spirit in which to dwell. (I assume we agree that the holy Spirit does not live in unregenerate non believers ( saved men)
We do agree on a lot. It is a matter of figuring out the terms. Once we do that, I think we understand each other better. For example, I hope to have shown you that although we talk about “works” as part of salvation, it is not something we do to earn anything, nor is it something we have done by ourselves. Love is something from God, given back for the sake of God. Yes, faith proceeds the love. We are saved by faith, but not faith alone. That is an important distinction. Unless, of course, you consider your definition of faith to include obedience to God. If we said faith means “intellectual knowledge, trust in God, and obedience to His will”, then I think we could say we are saved by faith alone. Howeve, I am not aware of many defining faith in that way. Personally, after reading the Scriptures, I don’t see how we can factor out love from the formula of salvation. Without it, is it possible for someone to be saved? How much faith does that person possess if he doesn’t have love for his neighbor or God?
Regards
Gods love or His carnal love?
Even in the sacramental system ( that as a protestant consider works) does not one expect that there are "graces" connected to correct participation? Is not those expectations God owing one for a correct choice or work or participation?
We receive graces ONLY because God promised that He would come to us through such contact. He promised that He would forgive our sins through the power of the Apostles. He promised that He would be our food to eat, our spiritual nourishment. Through the sacraments, we receive God’s graces to continue the journey. They are not works, but means of contacting the one we love.
Could you show me the scripture where Jesus promises giving grace from sacraments?
I think we might agree that an unsaved man can not bring forth good fruit as he is not attached to the vine, so all his fruit would be bad to the Lord. correct?
Towards salvation, I think so. An unsaved atheist might do something “good”, even “loving” because he might be cooperating with God’s Law written in his heart at that time. But we are judged not by one deed, but our entire life. An atheist will not walk in faith in God. So in the end, I think we can agree.
Now on the wise man ... Is wisdom a gift of God or is it like love in your opinion , self generated?
I never said love was self-generated! We love because of Christ. Wisdom, like love, is a gift of the Holy Spirit, who blows where He wills, even to the unsaved.
So you think an unsaved unbeliever that curses Christ might have a gift of the INDWELLING Holy Spirit?
In the Scripture, for example, we find cases of God using pagans to do His will – like Cyrus of the Persians.
We need caution in our examples. The Holy Spirit did not indwell anyone in the Old Testament ( there is one exception in an artisan that was crafting the Temple)
In the OT the Holy Spirit came ON men and MOVED men He did not indwell men. That is the change of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit now indwelled saved men .
God uses all things and people for His purposes, he prophesied through an ass in the OT. That is not the issue here. The question was where does a man get the wisdom to build his life on the Rock? That is divine wisdom, a gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
It is the one who uses his gifts often (the Talents parable) who will be rewarded – not based on his own work, of course, but that he used the talents given to him by God.
I believe that there are rewards for those that are obedient and wise in the use of the gifts of Holy Spirit and the work ordained by God for us. Of special import to me is that we see it as a work of God and not OUR work
Do we agree that there is a wisdom of the carnal man and a wisdom that is from God?
Yes, you have clearly shown that there is a worldly wisdom and a wisdom that follows the ways of God (which do not seem wise to the worldly – tongue twister!!). Carnal wisdom will not be of value, unless it happens to coincide with God’s will, such as those atheists who feel compelled to feed the hungry.
So the man that builds his house on a rock, does not do that out of his own wisdom, but out of the wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirits guidance.
I agree.
We actually have much agreement huh :)
To whom was he speaking when he told us to love one and other? He was speaking to the converted, the saved , believers . That is because within them dwell the Love of God and the Holy Spirit.
I think Christ intended that we love everyone, even our enemies, don’t you agree? Doesn’t Christ say in the Sermon on the Mount:
I think we are to have a love for all men that demands we present Christ to them, there is no greater love than to share the gospel.
I pointed to that scripture because we a it indicates that only the saved were being given that command with an expectation that they would have the desire to love like Christ, the unsaved can never approach it
You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:43-48)
In John 13, Jesus is merely giving us confirmation – that we KNOW we are His disciples IF we love – not because we make a one-time faith declaration. We KNOW we are disciples BECAUSE we love everyone – not just our friends.
I think there could be some self deception if we use that as the primary marker. (remember the deceptive heart ?)
The unsaved can not fulfill this command of Christ, only believers can .
It is potentially to all people, since Christ told His Apostles to teach and preach to the entire WORLD (Mat 28:20) ALL that He taught them. The Gospel is NOT meant just for the “saved”, although ONLY the saved will obey it!
Can you fulfill that command? Can you love ANYONE as He has loved ?
Not without Christ, I can’t. But if He abides in me, for example, through the Eucharist, I can love even my enemies and wish them the best for their sake.
What about 15 minutes after communion where the "physical Christ "( in your theology) is no longer present? Does Christ still indwell you? Are you still in Him? Do you still abide in Christ?
The test of this command to me is the day to day interaction with the world. I fail, I must admit, at times.
See we are back to the issue of the love of God indwelling the believer versus the love of men that comes from a carnal heart. God sees no benefit to the "good works"coming from a carnal heart.. Scripture indicates that the only love that is pleasing to God is His love ( and his work).
And I agree that “carnal love” is not meritorious for salvation. I don’t think it is “sinful”, but it is not going to be of value. However, how does one judge whether it is carnal or spiritual love? I would say the inner motivation. If a person does something totally for the sake of the other (emulating Christ), then I would say that deed is inspired by the Spirit and is worthy to be counted as meritorious, even if done by a Muslim.
Can a Muslim, that hates the God of Christianity, that sees Jesus as a prophet no better than Mohammed have the indwelling Holy Spirit? How does he have the love of Christ in his heart? Any love from the heart of an unregenerate man that hates the God of Christianity can not be the love of the Holy Spirit in him. Can God use that man? Yes, just as he used the heathens in the OT to accomplish His will but that does not mean the love expressed is from Christ in his heart.
Who are we to judge whom the ‘saved’ are? We just don’t know while alive on earth. If we judge a tree by its fruits, and we see a productive “tree”, we presume that the Spirit is working within that person, EVEN if that person doesn’t fit into our little religious definitions of who is saved (belong to “x” church or not).
I agree that our "judgment" of the fruit is temporal and not eternal. There are many evil persons that come to Christ in faith on their death beds. But that does not mean that we are not to make judgments in the here and now. Seeing a man that is a pimp, that denies God should cause us to present the gospel to him. If we do not judge that the man would be lost should he die that night, we fail to follow the great commandment. Failure to see the man you are about to get into a business contract with is a thief and a liar and a non believer cause us to deny the words of Christ that we not be unequally yoked. Well said. We just shouldn’t jump to conclusions about another person.
I think we need to be fruit inspectors, not to condemn them but to present Christ and be obedient to Gods commands not to be unequally yoked.
May I ask why you believe the gift of discernment is listed in the gifts of the indwelling Holy Spirit if we are to hold all men as "the same"?
I am not saying that all men are the same, just that we shouldn’t “hate” others because we “think” they are of the “unsaved”.
If we do not have a heart for the unsaved I would question our own salvation. I weep and pray for those that I see no sign of salvation in.
We don’t know WHO is unsaved, really. The Gift of Discernment, I think, is not so much about judging other people’s status with God, but determining the correct path to take – “what is God’s will for us in this particular event that is happening to me?”. That is what discernment is.
I think it works both ways. Yes it is about situations, and to help know truth when it is presented, but I believe that it is also in operation in knowing people that need to hear or learn of Christ, who to marry and who to form alliances and business contracts with, so that e can be obedient and not be unequally yoked.
When you say that we will be 'judged" on our faith working through love" are you talking about judgment to salvation or damnation or judgment for rewards ?
I am not aware of ANYWHERE in Scripture of a place that talks about judgment as receiving lesser rewards. It always seems to be about either entering into eternal bliss, or not entering into eternal bliss.
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
The scriptures speak of rewards for the saved. One of the things that always strikes me is that it says we will throw our crowns at His feet. The only thing of value we have to give our king are the crowns that he gave us for His work in us..
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Regarding judgment, we are judged based on how well we used the talents God gave us. We are judged how well we used the Spirit’s gifts. We are judged how well we loved, BECAUSE we abided in Christ. Basically, we are judged because we trusted in our Father and cooperated with His Will for us, not because of anything we did ALONE.
As a mother, you might appreciate this analogy…
Say you and your two year old daughter are going to bake cookies. You include her because you love her, not because you need her. You “let” her mix the batter, or place the batter on the cookie sheets. You do this together, a work of love, not because she is earning anything. You enjoy being with her, doing it together. You don’t CARE if she is not needed to make the cookies. That is not the purpose of the activity. And when Daddy comes home and your daughter says “look, Daddy, I made cookies”, would you get upset? Would you say “How dare you say you made the cookies? You are stealing my glory and honor and praise due me! You can do nothing alone!” Of course not. And this is what is going on between God and us. We really CAN say “I made the cookies”, although technically, I couldn’t have done it without the Spirit. It is a work of love. God deeply desires to be with us and work with us, now and in eternal heaven.
The question is truth, did the little girl REALLY make the cookies? If your work really could not be done without God why would you desire to claim autonomy in that act?
I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images (Isaiah 42:8).
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
One author writes this observation
"If God, by virtue of His essential being, must be jealous for His uniqueness and His supremacy above all, then those who know Him and want to please Him should be just as jealous for Him. If we are serious about our relationship with Him, we shall exalt Him above everyone and everything else in our lives; we shall be absolutely dedicated to living for His honor; we shall be zealously committed to doing His will. The primary goal of our lives will be to show the world that our God is the one true and living God—that He alone makes life meaningful and worthwhile."
I think this is a wise observation, if we are His we glory in his supremacy and activity in our lives. That is as natural as breathing
Does that make more sense? This is the Catholic point of view on “works” and cooperation with God.
Scripture on that please? {being saved by Baptism}
“Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:)
Baptism is nowhere referred to as “born of water” in Scripture. Jesus’ explanation in verse 6 is that He is referring to physical birth.“Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” In other words, there are two types of birth – natural and spiritual.
“Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? 38But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call” (Acts 2: 37-39)
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Not who ever is baptized will be saved. Did YOU repent before your baptism in agreement with this scripture?
the Greek word in this verse that is translated is "eis" can also be read as "because of" , this is most consistent with other scripture on salvation and Baptism.
“He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned” (Mark 16:16)
Please notice it is not the absence of Baptism that leads to condemnation it is the lack of belief.
Did You believe before you were Baptised?
why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. (Acts 22:16)
This was after Paul was saved on the road. The Baptism was as are New testament Baptisms symbolic of the repentance and forgiveness that has already occurred.
For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:2-4)
This does not speak to Baptismal regeneration, it speaks of Baptism being a 'type" of death and resurrection .
In Jewish tradition , a person who converted was baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was a symbolic act , making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not believe. To the Jewish apostles the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith. Paul said he was thankful he had not baptized. Paul the Jewish scholar , the convert on the road, the man that had himself been baptized into Christ.
1 Coth 1:14"I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius"
1 Corth 1:17"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power"
I believe that scripture is clear that repentance and faith are necessary for salvation not a magic act preformed on an unknowing , unbelieving, unrepentant infant.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment::9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
There are many more examples of Jesus and the apostles teaching and preaching salvation by Faith. The most potent example is the salvation of the thief on the cross, there was repentance and belief and then the promise of salvation.
And that says what about needing to do works to be saved? Paul later says what he meant by that : 1Cr 2:4, Rom 1:16
Well, of course, our love IS a power of God. Wouldn’t you say that a person who is able to love in the face of persecution and despair is displaying the power of God? Isn’t God’s Power shown the greatest during our weakness?
Is all love the Power of God or only the love generated by God in us?
James teaches that if there are no works there is no saving faith. He is addressing those that may have a profession of faith, yet do not have saving faith in Christ. He does not say that if there is works they give you faith, rather that the works of God come out of your faith in Christ. This book was written to the saved,he was teaching them not how to be saved, but how the world will know that they are Christians.
Pretty much, although I would say that our “works of love” that display our faith come from the Spirit, not our faith. Faith is like getting to first base. Because we get to first doesn’t mean we will score a run. It is only the first step in an ongoing journey.
As I have pointed out works that are pleasing to God are the works He ordains and does through us. It is HE that makes our works worthy not us.
I agree. But let us not forget our “part” in the “work”. At a given moment, we have a choice – to do a good deed or not. We are not irresistibly forced to do something good. Thus, it is OUR good deed (mine and Christ working within me. Without Him, I couldn’t do it, and without me, He allows the good deed to go undone).
I would say "our part" is to be obedient , I still would not say that it is MY work. I would say it is HIS work in me . If i do not do it, it will not remain undone, God will simply have another uncracked vessel to use :)
Abraham was justified before men when he placed his only son on the altar, they were able to see his faith, and the story is still told how it was he trusted God and had faith in God to keep His promise.
There was no one with Abraham to see that. Read the story more carefully. The servants stayed behind. The test was for Abraham. That way, after the fact, he KNEW that he did God’s will. He KNEW he was justified. It was not for the sake of other men to see, but for Abraham HIMSELF. Of course, God already knew.
I am not convinced it was not observed by his servants.However Abraham was often disobedient and had lapses of faith, for sure this was for Him and for his son ( that was an adult and willingly submitted to be the sacrifice ( thus the typology with the Father and Christ being a willing sacrifice). This story as retold by Moses under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit has been an inspiration of faith for all time. It is even claimed by the Muslims as their own. In this act we see Abraham's faith justified, yes to him but also to the world
So then it is your position that if one does not do wrks one loses their salvation? Are the works then for Gods glory or your eternal salvation? Are they serving God or a means to an end?
I hope by the time you get this far, you will see that “my” (Catholic) position is that we must continue to walk in faith. We must continue to cooperate with the graces (talents) that God gave/gives us. We must show our faith through love. If we don’t love, we aren’t saved for heaven.
Is it that if you fail to do works that you lose the salvation you believe you got at your baptism? Would that not be a part of the reason for the works, to get or keep what one has or has lost?
The love we show has several purposes, I suppose. First, it gives glory to God.
Not according to the cookie story :)
It also shows Christ to the world.
Only if He is the proclaimed cause and source of the work, other than that it brings glory to the little girl that claimed credit for the cookies :)
It brings others the truth.
Only if the truth is proclaimed by the one doing the act
Of course, it brings us to fulfillment of our destiny, which even begins in THIS world (as Christ came to bring life, and to live it even today, to the fullest). Our love also brings witness to the world of the truth of God’s Gospel. And of course, finally, it shows we are of Christ.
So what do the good works of Muslims show or the good works of the atheists ?
Indeed the elect will persevere, not in their own strength or power or works, but by the grace of God .
Agree
…Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity—that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21–28; 5:1–11)?
Yes, there is nothing I can do alone. My sins deserve eternal punishment. By the grace of God, I can be saved.
Amen !
Indeed we have much agreement. So much so that i must ask you, is one saved by faith or faith and works? If by faith and works, mustn't the faith proceed the works? If our love and works flow out of the indwelling Holy Spirit, must that not mean that the faith has saved us and made us a worthy home for the Holy Spirit in which to dwell. (I assume we agree that the holy Spirit does not live in unregenerate non believers ( saved men)
We do agree on a lot. It is a matter of figuring out the terms. Once we do that, I think we understand each other better. For example, I hope to have shown you that although we talk about “works” as part of salvation, it is not something we do to earn anything, nor is it something we have done by ourselves. Love is something from God, given back for the sake of God.
There is also self generated carnal love, even Hitler loved his mother and the blond arian race. So we need to difference between supernatural love and carnal love .
Yes, faith proceeds the love. We are saved by faith, but not faith alone. That is an important distinction.
But that is what the Bible teaches, that is what Jesus taught. We are saved by our faith, and the indwelling Holy Spirit brings us to do the works of God.
Unless, of course, you consider your definition of faith to include obedience to God.
Without faith there is no obedience to God.
If we said faith means “intellectual knowledge",
No The gospel is foolishness to those that are perishing, look at the men Christ selected, there is no requirement for anything but the faith of a child
even trust in God, and obedience to His will”,
If we are saved we desire to obey God and do His will, the obedience comes from the result of faith ( as it was with Abraham) , it is not the cause of it.
then I think we could say we are saved by faith alone.
That is not too alone :)
Howeve, I am not aware of many defining faith in that way. Personally, after reading the Scriptures, I don’t see how we can factor out love from the formula of salvation. Without it, is it possible for someone to be saved? How much faith does that person possess if he doesn’t have love for his neighbor or God?
I do not think we 'factor out ' love from salvation, but love is a FRUIT of the Holy Spirit, it comes from already being attached to the vine. Regards