But He did good works. Jesus said he NEVER KNEW him. NOT THAT HE KNEW HIM AND THEN HE SINNED. But that he had never known him INSPITE of all those good works done in the name of the Lord. Can an unsaved man do any pleasing act to God?
You are again confusing “works” as an action that obligates someone to pay them, and “good works” or “deeds of love”. God does not condemn our actions!!! Our actions are not the problem, the problem is those who are like the Pharisees, religious hypocrites who say they do “x” and “y”, thinking that God owes them, but do not hold to the real meaning of the law, namely, mercy and forgiveness. Consider the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7. Christ is calling US to HEED Him. Look at the end of the Sermon:
“Every one therefore that hears these my words, and does them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that hears these my words, and does them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof”. (Mat 7:24-27)
Note, Jesus, as He does throughout the Sermon, emphasizes our DOING. He is NOT condemning actions! Perish the thought! The question asked by Jesus, “did we not drive out demons in your name” is best explained by 1 Cor 13:2: “if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains (or cast out demons!), and have not love, I am nothing.” Christ is disdainful towards works without love. Action with love, however, is what HE COMMANDS! “Everyone who listens to my words (Mat 5 through Mat 7) AND ACTS UPON THEM will be like a wise man…but he who LISTENS to My words and DOESN’T ACT ON THEM will be like a fool”. (Mat 7:24, 26)
Clearly, Christ desires deeds of love. So does Paul. So does the rest of the NT writers. Christ left us ONE commandment: to love others as He had loved us. God doesn’t “know” the religious hypocrites who do works without love!
God expects us to be fruit inspectors
We can’t “inspect” the harvest until it has arrived, can we? Thus, we are not fruit “speculators” presuming we know how the harvest will be in five years, but “inspectors” of what is present and visible. We can only possibly inspect what we see growing – not what we THINK will be growing in five years.
You may doubt it if you like, but the bible is clear that the unsaved can do nothing pleasing to God.
But WE don’t know who the unsaved are. Only God has access to the Book of Life. Thus, it is not Christian to judge who is saved and who is not saved. That is up to God, not us. In the end, when we are judged based on our faith working through love, those who were evil and do not desire God’s eternal presence will be judged accordingly.
So as men we may see the act of the fireman as selfless and good, if it was preformed without faith to God it is a sin (a failure to seek and rely on him )
A sin is something against the will of God. Is saving someone against the will of God? Perhaps. But I think it is not really worth arguing over. It doesn’t sound as a Christian teaching, though, to say that a person performing a selfless act is sinning against God.
what is your definition of a "saved" person?
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
That’s it? I find verses that contradict that idea or interpretation of those verses in that manner. We see that as a Baptismal formula, thus, the words are spoken by a person who is being baptized (“lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses” 1 Tim 6:12). We are saved (healed) by Baptism. But our salvation is not “done” with that! Paul himself stated “For the kingdom of God is not in speech, but in power.” (1 Cor 4:20). We both know what James says in chapter 2 about faith without works (good deeds)… And John says “My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth” (1 John 3:18). Finally, Jesus makes a number of statements along this line, such as what we have been discussing in Matthew 7 and its parallel in Luke 6. He emphasizes DOING, LOVING. Not just talk. Thus, salvation requires more than just a simple Baptismal proclamation of faith. Salvation is an ongoing process, one requiring perseverance.
I expect God to be faithful to His word. We are saved by grace and mercy not our worth. Just as we can not save ourselves neither can we "keep" ourselves. To believe that we can dismisses the true Savior and turns to self dependance and self worth. I did not deserve to be saved on the day that God saved me, I do not deserve to be saved today nor will I deserve it tomorrow. I am saved soley by Gods mercy and grace, I am kept solely by Gods mercy and grace. I could not earn it nor can I keep it. HE is the author and finisher of my faith
I agree in the sense that we can do NOTHING with Christ abiding in us. As long as we are not part of the Vine, we cannot do anything of worth. We are judged on our response to God’s grace, not our worth – because God has given us EVERYTHING, both material and spiritual goods. Thus, we rely entirely upon God’s grace. We trust in Him as a child trusts their parents (when they are still young!). No, I do not deserve to be saved. I, too, am saved by God’s mercy and grace. Every gift He gives me, whether it is faith, repentance, or deeds of love, comes from Him. Thus, “He crowns only what He has already given us” (St. Augustine)
The doctrine of the preservation of the Saints (that is that the saved can not fall away is clearly taught in these passages,
The vast majority of those passages are telling us what OUGHT to happen – if we persevere. NOTHING can pry us out of God’s hand, as Paul says at the end of Romans 8. This is a joyful teaching. The devil and his temptations are held in check and cannot overcome God’s grace. ONLY WE can remove ourselves from eternal heaven. ONLY WE can decide to return to the vomit of our past life, to commit sins that God will not allow us to inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10, said to Christians!). Paul is PRESUMING that we will persevere and do what we OUGHT to do – to obey the Gospel teachings he had given to those Christian communities. He is clear that we CAN fall, however:
“Wherefore he that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor 10:12)
“If we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.” (Heb 10:26-27)
“To day if you shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation; in the day of temptation in the desert, Where your fathers tempted me, proved and saw my works, Forty years: for which cause I was offended with this generation, and I said: They always err in heart. And they have not known my ways, As I have sworn in my wrath: If they shall enter into my rest. Take heed, brethren, lest perhaps there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, to depart from the living God. But exhort one another every day, whilst it is called to day, that none of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ: yet so, if we hold the beginning of his substance firm unto the end. While it is said, To day if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in that provocation. For some who heard did provoke: but not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. And with whom was he offended forty years? Was it not with them that sinned, whose carcasses were overthrown in the desert? And to whom did he swear, that they should not enter into his rest: but to them that were incredulous? And we see that they could not enter in, because of unbelief.” (Heb 3:7-19, similar to 1 Cor 10:1-11)
Thou stands by faith: be not highminded, but fear. For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again (Romans 11:20-23)
And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11)
There are numerous others, but I think you get the picture… The ELECT will persevere, not the “saints”. We don’t know who the elect of God are. Whether the saints on earth persevere or not is not guaranteed by Scripture!
works were ordained for you before the foundation of the world( Eph 2) . They are Gods works in you and so they are pleasing to him . The works are indeed worthy before God and will be a part of one of the crown he gives you that you will toss at His feet acknowledging that HE not you deserve the glory for them
Ah, we agree again! See, it is just a matter of figuring out what we are trying to say!
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
That is the indwelling Holy Spirit . He is loving through us. If you do not have faith in Christ as your Saviour then you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no divine love there,only carnal love . You seem to be agreeing with me that faith and love both come from the Spirit. They are BOTH fruits of the work of the Spirit. Love doesn’t automatically come from faith – for if it did, our faith would always bring forth love. It doesn’t! Even if I have ALL faith to move mountains, loveless deeds are worthless. And because the Spirit is operative through us, through our response to Christ’s graces, the action is OURS, both the Spirit’s and the man’s. Thus, we CAN say it is OUR work. Since we are saved by faith AND love, we can only be saved by cooperation with God’s graces – whether that grace be faith in Him, or loving our neighbor.
Regards
The man said that he has caste out demons, prophesied and did many "wonderful works" is it your position that freeing one from demons is not good works? If you consider works NECESSARY for salvation then is there not an expectation of "payment" ( salvation) attached to them? Even in the sacramental system ( that as a protestant consider works) does not one expect that there are "graces" connected to correct participation? Is not those expectations God owing one for a correct choice or work or participation?
“Every one therefore that hears these my words, and does them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that hears these my words, and does them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof”. (Mat 7:24-27)
Note, Jesus, as He does throughout the Sermon, emphasizes our DOING. He is NOT condemning actions! Perish the thought!
Having your house fall down and wash away is not a judgment? Was the great flood a judgment?
The question asked by Jesus, “did we not drive out demons in your name” is best explained by 1 Cor 13:2: “if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains (or cast out demons!), and have not love, I am nothing.” Christ is disdainful towards works without love. Action with love, however, is what HE COMMANDS! “Everyone who listens to my words (Mat 5 through Mat 7) AND ACTS UPON THEM will be like a wise man
" Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
I think we might agree that an unsaved man can not bring forth good fruit as he is not attached to the vine, so all his fruit would be bad to the Lord. correct?
Now on the wise man ... Is wisdom a gift of God or is it like love in your opinion , self generated?
Do we agree that there is a wisdom of the carnal man and a wisdom that is from God?
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
So the man that builds his house on a rock, does not do that out of his own wisdom, but out of the wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirits guidance.
Clearly, Christ desires deeds of love. So does Paul. So does the rest of the NT writers. Christ left us ONE commandment: to love others as He had loved us. God doesn’t “know” the religious hypocrites who do works without love!
To whom was he speaking when he told us to love one and other? He was speaking to the converted, the saved , believers . That is because within them dwell the Love of God and the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Read this, it was a command TO THE DISCIPLES not a command to unsaved men . The command was that they LOVE EACH OTHER as an example of his love . The unsaved can not fulfill this command of Christ, only believers can .
Can you fulfill that command? Can you love ANYONE as He has loved ?
When reading scripture context means things, look at the audience to whom he was speaking.
Can an unsaved man have the love of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him? Did the Holy Spirit indwell hitler? Jeffery Dalemler? Jeffrey loved the men he killed and ate. He loved them so much that he wanted them to be a real part of him.
See we are back to the issue of the love of God indwelling the believer versus the love of men that comes from a carnal heart. God sees no benefit to the "good works"coming from a carnal heart.. Scripture indicates that the only love that is pleasing to God is His love ( and his work).
We can’t “inspect” the harvest until it has arrived, can we? Thus, we are not fruit “speculators” presuming we know how the harvest will be in five years, but “inspectors” of what is present and visible. We can only possibly inspect what we see growing – not what we THINK will be growing in five years.
I agree that our "judgment" of the fruit is temporal and not eternal. There are many evil persons that come to Christ in faith on their death beds. But that does not mean that we are not to make judgments in the here and now. Seeing a man that is a pimp, that denies God should cause us to present the gospel to him. If we do not judge that the man would be lost should he die that night, we fail to follow the great commandment. Failure to see the man you are about to get into a business contract with is a thief and a liar and a non believer cause us to deny the words of Christ that we not be unequally yoked.
But WE don’t know who the unsaved are. Only God has access to the Book of Life. Thus, it is not Christian to judge who is saved and who is not saved. That is up to God, not us.
The final judgment of men, is indeed Gods to render. But while we walk this earth he has told us to judge who we are friends with, who we do business with, who we marry and to seek the unsaved to present them with the gospel.
May I ask why you believe the gift of discernment is listed in the gifts of the indwelling Holy Spirit if we are to hold all men as "the same"?
In the end, when we are judged based on our faith working through love, those who were evil and do not desire God’s eternal presence will be judged accordingly.
Who's love? Your love? When you say that we will be 'judged" on our faith working through love" are you talking about judgment to salvation or damnation or judgment for rewards ?
That’s it? I find verses that contradict that idea or interpretation of those verses in that manner.
So then do you believe Paul was wrong?
We see that as a Baptismal formula, thus, the words are spoken by a person who is being baptized (“lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses” 1 Tim 6:12).
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
This verse does not address salvation by baptism
We are saved (healed) by Baptism.
Scripture on that please? The only scripture that even comes close to teaching salvation in baptism is Peters comment in acts, where as throughout the NT salvation by faith is taught .
But our salvation is not “done” with that! Paul himself stated “For the kingdom of God is not in speech, but in power.” (1 Cor 4:20).
And that says what about needing to do works to be saved? Paul later says what he meant by that
1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
We both know what James says in chapter 2 about faith without works (good deeds)…
James teaches that if there are no works there is no saving faith. He is addressing those that may have a profession of faith, yet do not have saving faith in Christ. He does not say that if there is works they give you faith, rather that the works of God come out of your faith in Christ. This book was written to the saved,he was teaching them not how to be saved, but how the world will know that they are Christians.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
The works show our faith to the unsaved world and each other, they do not give us faith or save us. (back to fruit inspection :)
As I have pointed out works that are pleasing to God are the works He ordains and does through us. It is HE that makes our works worthy not us.
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Abraham was justified before men when he placed his sonly son on the altar, they were able to see his faith, and the story is still told how it was he trusted God and had faith in God to keep His promise.
And John says “My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth” (1 John 3:18).
To whom was he speaking? I believe the 'little children" were the saved. This was not a lesson on how to be saved, but how to live out your faith.
Finally, Jesus makes a number of statements along this line, such as what we have been discussing in Matthew 7 and its parallel in Luke 6. He emphasizes DOING, LOVING. Not just talk. Thus, salvation requires more than just a simple Baptismal proclamation of faith. Salvation is an ongoing process, one requiring perseverance.
So then it is your position that if one does not do wrks one loses their salvation? Are the works then for Gods glory or your eternal salvation? Are they serving God or a means to an end?
There are numerous others, but I think you get the picture… The ELECT will persevere, not the “saints”. We don’t know who the elect of God are. Whether the saints on earth persevere or not is not guaranteed by Scripture!
Indeed the elect will persevere, not in their own strength or power or works, but by the grace of God .
Interesting article on how one knows if they are elect
Do you believe that you have offended the all-holy Creator (Rom. 3:10–18; Ps. 51:1–4)?
Do you believe that your sins cry out to heaven itself for justice, and that you deserve to perish under the wrath of the God you have offended by your sins (Isa. 59:2–3; Ezek. 18:4)?
Do you believe that you are, in fact, dead in your sins and unable to make yourself alive (Eph. 2:1–3; Rom. 8:5–8)?
Do you believe that nothing you could ever do—no good deeds, no mighty acts of faith, no church attendance, no niceness of character—will ever be sufficient to appease the wrath of your holy Creator against your sins (Mic. 6:6–7; Isa. 59:12–14)?
Do you believe that God, the God you have offended by your sins, has himself provided the way of escape through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5–7; Col. 2:13)?
Have you been united to Christ by faith, a faith you did not earn, but received as a gift from God? Do you believe that, having been savingly joined by faith to the Son of God, your sins are finally and fully paid for, and that you are forgiven and declared righteous, as though you had never sinned (Gal. 2:16, 20; Rom. 8:1–4)?
Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity—that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21–28; 5:1–11)?
election
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
That is the indwelling Holy Spirit . He is loving through us. If you do not have faith in Christ as your Saviour then you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no divine love there,only carnal love .
Indeed we have much agreement. So much so that i must ask you, is one saved by faith or faith and works? If by faith and works, mustn't the faith proceed the works? If our love and works flow out of the indwelling Holy Spirit, must that not mean that the faith has saved us and made us a worthy home for the Holy Spirit in which to dwell. (I assume we agree that the holy Spirit does not live in unregenerate non believers ( saved men)