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To: Alex Murphy
Remind me again which camp teaches that God is sovereign even over man's will, and which camp teaches that God will not - perhaps even cannot, override mankind's "free will" when it comes to man overcoming the bondage to sin and choosing salvation for himself.

Does this have anything to do with the Pope being "infallible in matters of theology," Alex? ;-)

I'm not sure why you think there are only two "camps", but I as a Catholic am not in the came that says that God "cannot override mankind's 'free will' when it comes to man overcoming the bondage to sin and choosing salvation for himself". I don't think man can choose salvation for himself; that's semi-Pelagianism.

I do think God sovereignly chooses to give all (or perhaps only almost all) men the freedom to freely choose damnation for themselves. Why does he choose to do that? Because he doesn't wish to coerce our love, because coerced love isn't love. God wishes to save all men, but that desire isn't absolute or unconditional. He can want to save all men, but only as free moral agents. You have to allow him the sovereign freedom to do that.

Ironically, the Catholic God seems more sovereign to me than the Calvinist one, because the Catholic God is free to make creatures who can choose on their own to say "no".

146 posted on 01/02/2006 8:58:21 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion; Alex Murphy
Ironically, the Catholic God seems more sovereign to me than the Calvinist one, because the Catholic God is free to make creatures who can choose on their own to say "no".

Who says the "Calvinist" God isn't free to create any creatures He so chooses to do whatever He chooses? Maybe the Calvinist God loves us so much that since He already knows what we would choose left to our own devices, He chooses to save the elect anyway.

148 posted on 01/02/2006 9:47:54 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Campion
Does this have anything to do with the Pope being "infallible in matters of theology," Alex? ;-)

Actually, no. Unless the Pope is personally posting here on FR, typing his doctrinal references out infallibly whilst performing the role of supreme pontiff (which is frankly a sight I'd like to see - the Holy See on his throne, in full regalia typing away on a laptop, or better yet, instant messaging on a cellphone), or unless you are citing the chapter-and-verse, actual "supreme pontiff" pronouncements supporting your own espousements of Catholic doctrine, everything that you maintain to be Roman Catholic doctrine is just your own personal interpretation of what that doctrine or Scriptural interpretation is, unless you can cite the papally infallible source documents that back up your interpretations.

Until then, we're just two guys (you are a guy, aren't you?) offering up our personal beliefs and interpretations of the Truth. No offense taken, and none intended. And if the Pope is posting on FR, be sure to ping me to the thread.

278 posted on 01/04/2006 6:57:21 AM PST by Alex Murphy (Proverbs 12:10)
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