But He did good works. Jesus said he NEVER KNEW him. NOT THAT HE KNEW HIM AND THEN HE SINNED. But that he had never known him INSPITE of all those good works done in the name of the Lord. Can an unsaved man do any pleasing act to God?
There is a direct connection between the 2 verses
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
Mat 7:23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
If he was performing God pleasing works, and by your reckoning that works are a part of salvation, surely God would have known him. But He NEVER KNEW HIM
I believe the sentence points to the sin being what the man believed were "good works" worthy off salvation. But even if you want to deny that the things Christ was calling "lawlessness" were the things like casting out demons in His name, it does not change the fact that the mans works did not help him even get the Lords attention, let alone help in salvation
But you are presuming to know WHO the unsaved are! How do we know today who will be destined for eternal life? God will save whom He will.
I am presuming nothing, only stating that God expects us to be fruit inspectors. Implicate in the command to preach the gospel is that it goes to unsaved men, the order not to be unequally yoked implies some judgment on our friends, future spouses and business partners. Why do you think He would tell us those things if He did not intend for us to make some judgments on the spiritual condition of others? Our decision is not "binding on God" but we are look at others with an eye to their eternal state
Those who think they stand firmly, beware lest they fall! As to the "unsaved" fireman, I doubt that God would treat that as sin...Selfless sacrifice is not against the will of God - recall what Christ did on the cross? Selflsess sacrifice? It might not mean much regarding that fireman's eternal destiny (not knowing anything about him), but I wouldn't say that that act is sinful.
You may doubt it if you like, but the bible is clear that the unsaved can do nothing pleasing to God. He said "WHAT IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN" God called it sin not me.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So as men we may see the act of the fireman as selfless and good, if it was preformed without faith to God it is a sin (a failure to seek and rely on him )
True. But what is your definition of a "saved" person?
The one found in the Bible
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
All that refers to the present. We can have an idea if we are saved today. But five years from now? Who knows what kind of fruit we will bring forth? Do you know of people who fell away? Before they fell away, do you think they were heading for eternal heaven? We just don't know what the future has in store for us. Also, we are wounded creatures. We cannot know perfectly where we stand before God, even today. I think it is better to approach the Lord in humble confidence that He will save us, rather than an expectation that He will save us.
I expect God to be faithful to His word. We are saved by grace and mercy not our worth. Just as we can not save ourselves neither can we "keep" ourselves. To believe that we can dismisses the true Savior and turns to self dependance and self worth. I did not deserve to be saved on the day that God saved me, I do not deserve to be saved today nor will I deserve it tomorrow. I am saved soley by Gods mercy and grace, I am kept solely by Gods mercy and grace. I could not earn it nor can I keep it. HE is the author and finisher of my faith
( The doctrine of the preservation of the Saints (that is that the saved can not fall away is clearly taught in these passages, John 10:28,29; Romans 11:29; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5. It, moreover, follows from a consideration of (1) the immutability of the divine decrees (Jeremiah 31:3; Matthew 24:22-24; Acts 13:48; Romans 8:30); (2) the provisions of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40; John 10:29; 17:2-6); (3) the atonement and intercession of Christ (Isaiah 53:6,11; Matthew 20:28; 1 Peter 2:24; John 11:42; 17:11,15,20; Romans 8:34); and (4) the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; 2co 1:21,22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:14; 1 John 3:9).
1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24.)
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/perseverance.html
What about when I abide in Christ? My works are no longer only my own, but the Spirit's, as well. Thus, my deeds of love prompted by the Spirit are meritorious for my salvation. They are no longer self serving works. "In the flesh" refers to those works WITHOUT Christ.
Agreed, those works were ordained for you before the foundation of the world( Eph 2) . They are Gods works in you and so they are pleasing to him . The works are indeed worthy before God and will be a part of one of the crown he gives you that you will toss at His feet acknowledging that HE not you deserve the glory for them
I would say you can't love without faith, and faith without love is not worthy of God. Faith is not the root, God is the root. When the Scriptures talk about love, do they mention the Spirit or faith as the catalyst? Whether it is faith or love, it is a gift from the Lord. First comes faith, then comes love. But love doesn't come from faith. If it did, then "all faith, enough to move mountains" would be sufficient to provide saving love - but Paul says it doesn't.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
That is the indwelling Holy Spirit . He is loving through us. If you do not have faith in Christ as your Saviour then you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no divine love there,only carnal love .
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God,,/B> and knoweth God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I will get back to Post #1385, it is quite extensive. Just to let you know I am not ignoring you.
Regards
But He did good works. Jesus said he NEVER KNEW him. NOT THAT HE KNEW HIM AND THEN HE SINNED. But that he had never known him INSPITE of all those good works done in the name of the Lord. Can an unsaved man do any pleasing act to God?
You are again confusing “works” as an action that obligates someone to pay them, and “good works” or “deeds of love”. God does not condemn our actions!!! Our actions are not the problem, the problem is those who are like the Pharisees, religious hypocrites who say they do “x” and “y”, thinking that God owes them, but do not hold to the real meaning of the law, namely, mercy and forgiveness. Consider the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7. Christ is calling US to HEED Him. Look at the end of the Sermon:
“Every one therefore that hears these my words, and does them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that hears these my words, and does them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof”. (Mat 7:24-27)
Note, Jesus, as He does throughout the Sermon, emphasizes our DOING. He is NOT condemning actions! Perish the thought! The question asked by Jesus, “did we not drive out demons in your name” is best explained by 1 Cor 13:2: “if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains (or cast out demons!), and have not love, I am nothing.” Christ is disdainful towards works without love. Action with love, however, is what HE COMMANDS! “Everyone who listens to my words (Mat 5 through Mat 7) AND ACTS UPON THEM will be like a wise man…but he who LISTENS to My words and DOESN’T ACT ON THEM will be like a fool”. (Mat 7:24, 26)
Clearly, Christ desires deeds of love. So does Paul. So does the rest of the NT writers. Christ left us ONE commandment: to love others as He had loved us. God doesn’t “know” the religious hypocrites who do works without love!
God expects us to be fruit inspectors
We can’t “inspect” the harvest until it has arrived, can we? Thus, we are not fruit “speculators” presuming we know how the harvest will be in five years, but “inspectors” of what is present and visible. We can only possibly inspect what we see growing – not what we THINK will be growing in five years.
You may doubt it if you like, but the bible is clear that the unsaved can do nothing pleasing to God.
But WE don’t know who the unsaved are. Only God has access to the Book of Life. Thus, it is not Christian to judge who is saved and who is not saved. That is up to God, not us. In the end, when we are judged based on our faith working through love, those who were evil and do not desire God’s eternal presence will be judged accordingly.
So as men we may see the act of the fireman as selfless and good, if it was preformed without faith to God it is a sin (a failure to seek and rely on him )
A sin is something against the will of God. Is saving someone against the will of God? Perhaps. But I think it is not really worth arguing over. It doesn’t sound as a Christian teaching, though, to say that a person performing a selfless act is sinning against God.
what is your definition of a "saved" person?
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
That’s it? I find verses that contradict that idea or interpretation of those verses in that manner. We see that as a Baptismal formula, thus, the words are spoken by a person who is being baptized (“lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses” 1 Tim 6:12). We are saved (healed) by Baptism. But our salvation is not “done” with that! Paul himself stated “For the kingdom of God is not in speech, but in power.” (1 Cor 4:20). We both know what James says in chapter 2 about faith without works (good deeds)… And John says “My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth” (1 John 3:18). Finally, Jesus makes a number of statements along this line, such as what we have been discussing in Matthew 7 and its parallel in Luke 6. He emphasizes DOING, LOVING. Not just talk. Thus, salvation requires more than just a simple Baptismal proclamation of faith. Salvation is an ongoing process, one requiring perseverance.
I expect God to be faithful to His word. We are saved by grace and mercy not our worth. Just as we can not save ourselves neither can we "keep" ourselves. To believe that we can dismisses the true Savior and turns to self dependance and self worth. I did not deserve to be saved on the day that God saved me, I do not deserve to be saved today nor will I deserve it tomorrow. I am saved soley by Gods mercy and grace, I am kept solely by Gods mercy and grace. I could not earn it nor can I keep it. HE is the author and finisher of my faith
I agree in the sense that we can do NOTHING with Christ abiding in us. As long as we are not part of the Vine, we cannot do anything of worth. We are judged on our response to God’s grace, not our worth – because God has given us EVERYTHING, both material and spiritual goods. Thus, we rely entirely upon God’s grace. We trust in Him as a child trusts their parents (when they are still young!). No, I do not deserve to be saved. I, too, am saved by God’s mercy and grace. Every gift He gives me, whether it is faith, repentance, or deeds of love, comes from Him. Thus, “He crowns only what He has already given us” (St. Augustine)
The doctrine of the preservation of the Saints (that is that the saved can not fall away is clearly taught in these passages,
The vast majority of those passages are telling us what OUGHT to happen – if we persevere. NOTHING can pry us out of God’s hand, as Paul says at the end of Romans 8. This is a joyful teaching. The devil and his temptations are held in check and cannot overcome God’s grace. ONLY WE can remove ourselves from eternal heaven. ONLY WE can decide to return to the vomit of our past life, to commit sins that God will not allow us to inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10, said to Christians!). Paul is PRESUMING that we will persevere and do what we OUGHT to do – to obey the Gospel teachings he had given to those Christian communities. He is clear that we CAN fall, however:
“Wherefore he that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor 10:12)
“If we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.” (Heb 10:26-27)
“To day if you shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation; in the day of temptation in the desert, Where your fathers tempted me, proved and saw my works, Forty years: for which cause I was offended with this generation, and I said: They always err in heart. And they have not known my ways, As I have sworn in my wrath: If they shall enter into my rest. Take heed, brethren, lest perhaps there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, to depart from the living God. But exhort one another every day, whilst it is called to day, that none of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ: yet so, if we hold the beginning of his substance firm unto the end. While it is said, To day if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in that provocation. For some who heard did provoke: but not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. And with whom was he offended forty years? Was it not with them that sinned, whose carcasses were overthrown in the desert? And to whom did he swear, that they should not enter into his rest: but to them that were incredulous? And we see that they could not enter in, because of unbelief.” (Heb 3:7-19, similar to 1 Cor 10:1-11)
Thou stands by faith: be not highminded, but fear. For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again (Romans 11:20-23)
And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11)
There are numerous others, but I think you get the picture… The ELECT will persevere, not the “saints”. We don’t know who the elect of God are. Whether the saints on earth persevere or not is not guaranteed by Scripture!
works were ordained for you before the foundation of the world( Eph 2) . They are Gods works in you and so they are pleasing to him . The works are indeed worthy before God and will be a part of one of the crown he gives you that you will toss at His feet acknowledging that HE not you deserve the glory for them
Ah, we agree again! See, it is just a matter of figuring out what we are trying to say!
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
That is the indwelling Holy Spirit . He is loving through us. If you do not have faith in Christ as your Saviour then you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no divine love there,only carnal love . You seem to be agreeing with me that faith and love both come from the Spirit. They are BOTH fruits of the work of the Spirit. Love doesn’t automatically come from faith – for if it did, our faith would always bring forth love. It doesn’t! Even if I have ALL faith to move mountains, loveless deeds are worthless. And because the Spirit is operative through us, through our response to Christ’s graces, the action is OURS, both the Spirit’s and the man’s. Thus, we CAN say it is OUR work. Since we are saved by faith AND love, we can only be saved by cooperation with God’s graces – whether that grace be faith in Him, or loving our neighbor.
Regards