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To: RnMomof7
I would say that when you do works believing that they aid in your salvation they are self serving, the primary goal is self love .

I would agree. I think we can identify the difference between a love-filled action and a self-serving action. We KNOW deep inside why we do the things we do. We must love the Lord with our whole selves for the sake of loving Him, not to earn something.

The inner disposition of the person? Do you mean the heart? God tells us the heart is deceitful and who can know it? We could call that self deception. The man in Matthew BELIEVED he had done works for the Lord, that is why he called attention to them. But Christ said they were inequity.

You must be speaking of the Rich Young Man. "What can I do to earn salvation"!!! Notice Christ says "He loved him". But there was one thing keeping the rich man from entering the Kingdom (having a loving relationship with Christ) - money. Money does not allow us to rely on Christ, but ourselves. Jesus wants us to set Him as our first priority. Christ says we can approach Him with a pure heart, if He abides in us.

So the question is, if the heart is deceptive, even to the man it is in, and the man believes what he is doing he is doing in the Lords name, he could be wrong, correct? God could say to him "I never knew you"

Again, I think we can know deep within us whether we do something for ulterior motives or not. Even the little things, we can offer up to Christ. When my boss tells me to do something I'd rather not, I can cheerfully obey, offering that up for the sake of Christ. Any little thing can be spiritually given for the sake of our Lord. I think the ones who God will say "I never knew you" will be those who saw themselves as religiously righteous, but were doing so to draw attention to themselves or to bring more power upon themselves. Christ criticized the Pharisees inner motives, but not their actions. He never said anything bad about their extra fasting and tithing - except for the fact that they were proud in it. However, one can do these quietly for the sake of our Lord.

Do the unsaved abide in God? I am asking a salvation question. If a man is not saved, then his works are "filthy rags "not coming from the love that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit. That would mean to God those good works are not coming from divine love and are inequity to Christ. They would not add a wit to his salvation right?

When you write "unsaved", are you talking about those who have not yet completed the "sinner's prayer" or Baptism? Because quite frankly, we don't KNOW who God's elect are. The Church has taught that God is not bound by the sacraments. He can save whom He will. Thus, strictly speaking, Baptism is not an absolute requirement. The Spirit blows where He wills. Thus, a pagan, with the "Law" written on their hearts (see Rom 2) can act as if they had been spiritually circumcised, as opposed to those who have been physically circumcised, but not of the heart. Thus, it is possible that some people who never are baptised can be saved. We just don't know WHO are God's elect.

When we here on earth say person "x"'s works are as worthless rags, we are pre-judging that person, because we really don't know if the Spirit is moving that person outside of Baptism. We judge a person by their fruits. Who you call an "unsaved" person may be more saved than you or I (in God's eyes) because that person is responding to the little graces he has received more than either of us, with all the aids that we have through Scripture reading, the Eucharist, and so forth. God gives us many gifts through the Church, but we can reject them. Recall that Chrsit said that prostitutes and tax collectors are entering the Kingdom first...Thus, we should be careful on whom we exclude from the Kingdom!

But the unsaved can not do any good works as i have pointed out all their works are sin to God and can add only to their damnation not their salvation. So we have a problem. A man can not be saved with works that God sees only as sin, there must be an inward change , a work of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit to have works that God considers meritorious .

That's true. Our works before Baptism cannot earn us heaven. Those works are as "dirty rags". As before, there must be an inward change as a result of Christ's abiding presence. Only Spirit-filled works, for the Christian, have any meaning come the day of judgment.

That is what I would say, only the actions of the saved are acceptable to God. That being the fact they can not be "saving" because one needs to be saved to have God pleasing "works" .

Of course. But we don't know in the end who will be saved for heaven until we are standing before His Throne.

So do works save..NO , something needs precede them to make them meritorious, that something is Faith

I agree. We cannot be saved by works alone. We must possess faith in God and walk in that faith through loving deeds. IT is through "faith working in love" that means anything (Gal 5:6)

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Note Paul places salvation as coming from Faith, and the works only later as being ordained for us to walk in .

Faith comes first. But that doesn't mean that we will love. We must do both. If we don't let our faith take action by love, our faith is worthless (1 Cor 13:2). I keep bringing that verse up because I think it is important to see that faith, even ALL faith, doesn't necessarily lead to love. We must have BOTH for salvation to be effective within us.

Sometime this is difficult dialog, because we use the same terms, but we mean different things

You said it! The word "works" throws people into a fits!

Regards

1,317 posted on 01/13/2006 5:02:28 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
The inner disposition of the person? Do you mean the heart? God tells us the heart is deceitful and who can know it? We could call that self deception. The man in Matthew BELIEVED he had done works for the Lord, that is why he called attention to them. But Christ said they were inequity
. You must be speaking of the Rich Young Man. "What can I do to earn salvation"!!! Notice Christ says "He loved him". But there was one thing keeping the rich man from entering the Kingdom (having a loving relationship with Christ) - money. Money does not allow us to rely on Christ, but ourselves. Jesus wants us to set Him as our first priority. Christ says we can approach Him with a pure heart, if He abides in us.

No I was speaking of the man in Matthew

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here is a man that's HEART told him he was working toward his salvation and bearing fruit for salvation , but Christ said that he never even KNEW the man . He called all that self benefiting work a Sin.

I was not discussing the rich young ruler.

Again, I think we can know deep within us whether we do something for ulterior motives or not. Even the little things, we can offer up to Christ

Well you can believe that if you like, but God says otherwise.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The man calling Lord Lord believed in his heart that he was working for the Lord, that is why he called it to the attention of Christ. But Christ called all those works inequity

Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

I think the ones who God will say "I never knew you" will be those who saw themselves as religiously righteous, but were doing so to draw attention to themselves or to bring more power upon themselves.

I agree that is a part of the crowd, but the bible tells me that unsaved man can never please God and that all his works are wood , hay and stubble.

So an unsaved fireman that rushes into a building to save a child might be a hero to men, but if he is unsaved to God that very act is a sin .

When you write "unsaved", are you talking about those who have not yet completed the "sinner's prayer" or Baptism?

The sinners prayer like Baptism is a "work of men" . The prayer saves no one, any more than baptism does. Salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit that brings a man to repentance and faith. When that happens men will testify to the change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit and they will profess Christ as Lord and Savior. The profess is an outward sign of an inward change, much like baptism

Because quite frankly, we don't KNOW who God's elect are. The Church has taught that God is not bound by the sacraments. He can save whom He will. Thus, strictly speaking, Baptism is not an absolute requirement. The Spirit blows where He wills. Thus, a pagan, with the "Law" written on their hearts (see Rom 2) can act as if they had been spiritually circumcised, as opposed to those who have been physically circumcised, but not of the heart. Thus, it is possible that some people who never are baptised can be saved. We just don't know WHO are God's elect.

I think scripture tells us how to know if a man is saved and it definitely tells us that we have an assurance of our own salvation

Think of what Christ told us. He said that we can know a tree by its fruit, we are all called to be fruit inspectors. We are commanded not to be unequally yoked, that implies that we can know the saved abet not perfectly. I can not judge perfectly if another is saved, but I surely know who is not.

Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Hebrew 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God , purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God ? 

But as to our own position in Christ. I know that I am saved, I do not doubt that fact, because I have peace with Christ.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. I know that I know. That is the witness of the Holy Spirit that God promises.

When we here on earth say person "x"'s works are as worthless rags, we are pre-judging that person,

I am not saying, God is .He says ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags. ALL of our self serving carnal works. That is me and it is you, it is every man .

Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God .That man in Matthew did works in the name of God, GOOD works, yet they worked to his condemnation. That is because the man was not Christ's

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Recall that Christ said that prostitutes and tax collectors are entering the Kingdom first...Thus, we should be careful on whom we exclude from the Kingdom!

Not as they are, but as new creations in Christ. A man may come to faith in Christ on his death bed, there is always a hope, But a man s current spiritual condition is clearly evident in his life.

Faith comes first. But that doesn't mean that we will love. We must do both. If we don't let our faith take action by love, our faith is worthless (1 Cor 13:2). I keep bringing that verse up because I think it is important to see that faith, even ALL faith, doesn't necessarily lead to love. We must have BOTH for salvation to be effective within us.

We disagree, the kind of agape love comes only from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit only indwells the saved. The love a man can self generate is carnal and self serving.

Agape love is a fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit, it is God loving through us, not us loving to earn brownie points.

So the root of that kind of love is our faith . I would say the love is a fruit of our salvation not its roots. It does not make our salvation "effective" but it does make it evident.

1,340 posted on 01/13/2006 9:57:33 AM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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