No I was speaking of the man in Matthew
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Here is a man that's HEART told him he was working toward his salvation and bearing fruit for salvation , but Christ said that he never even KNEW the man . He called all that self benefiting work a Sin.
I was not discussing the rich young ruler.
Again, I think we can know deep within us whether we do something for ulterior motives or not. Even the little things, we can offer up to Christ
Well you can believe that if you like, but God says otherwise.
Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
The man calling Lord Lord believed in his heart that he was working for the Lord, that is why he called it to the attention of Christ. But Christ called all those works inequity
Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
I think the ones who God will say "I never knew you" will be those who saw themselves as religiously righteous, but were doing so to draw attention to themselves or to bring more power upon themselves.
I agree that is a part of the crowd, but the bible tells me that unsaved man can never please God and that all his works are wood , hay and stubble.
So an unsaved fireman that rushes into a building to save a child might be a hero to men, but if he is unsaved to God that very act is a sin .
When you write "unsaved", are you talking about those who have not yet completed the "sinner's prayer" or Baptism?
The sinners prayer like Baptism is a "work of men" . The prayer saves no one, any more than baptism does. Salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit that brings a man to repentance and faith. When that happens men will testify to the change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit and they will profess Christ as Lord and Savior. The profess is an outward sign of an inward change, much like baptism
Because quite frankly, we don't KNOW who God's elect are. The Church has taught that God is not bound by the sacraments. He can save whom He will. Thus, strictly speaking, Baptism is not an absolute requirement. The Spirit blows where He wills. Thus, a pagan, with the "Law" written on their hearts (see Rom 2) can act as if they had been spiritually circumcised, as opposed to those who have been physically circumcised, but not of the heart. Thus, it is possible that some people who never are baptised can be saved. We just don't know WHO are God's elect.
I think scripture tells us how to know if a man is saved and it definitely tells us that we have an assurance of our own salvation
Think of what Christ told us. He said that we can know a tree by its fruit, we are all called to be fruit inspectors. We are commanded not to be unequally yoked, that implies that we can know the saved abet not perfectly. I can not judge perfectly if another is saved, but I surely know who is not.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Hebrew 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God , purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God ?
But as to our own position in Christ. I know that I am saved, I do not doubt that fact, because I have peace with Christ.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. I know that I know. That is the witness of the Holy Spirit that God promises.
When we here on earth say person "x"'s works are as worthless rags, we are pre-judging that person,
I am not saying, God is .He says ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags. ALL of our self serving carnal works. That is me and it is you, it is every man .
Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God .That man in Matthew did works in the name of God, GOOD works, yet they worked to his condemnation. That is because the man was not Christ's
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Recall that Christ said that prostitutes and tax collectors are entering the Kingdom first...Thus, we should be careful on whom we exclude from the Kingdom!
Not as they are, but as new creations in Christ. A man may come to faith in Christ on his death bed, there is always a hope, But a man s current spiritual condition is clearly evident in his life.
Faith comes first. But that doesn't mean that we will love. We must do both. If we don't let our faith take action by love, our faith is worthless (1 Cor 13:2). I keep bringing that verse up because I think it is important to see that faith, even ALL faith, doesn't necessarily lead to love. We must have BOTH for salvation to be effective within us.
We disagree, the kind of agape love comes only from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit only indwells the saved. The love a man can self generate is carnal and self serving.
Agape love is a fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit, it is God loving through us, not us loving to earn brownie points.
So the root of that kind of love is our faith . I would say the love is a fruit of our salvation not its roots. It does not make our salvation "effective" but it does make it evident.
Oh. my mistake.
The man calling Lord Lord believed in his heart that he was working for the Lord, that is why he called it to the attention of Christ. But Christ called all those works inequity
Regarding Matthew 7, a little bit of context might help. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matt 7:15-23)
Again, Jesus is not condemning good deeds per sec. In verse 15, He warns about those with false or evil hearts. Such a one cannot bear good fruits all the time. Other sections of the NT also bear this out - a person cannot do good if they are of evil mind. In verse 23, again, Jesus is speaking of "I never knew you" to those who practice lawlessness - not those who practice good deeds. He, as He does quite often, charges the hypocriticals to beware - God knows what is at their heart.
Nowhere does Matthew 7 talk about a man who does good deeds from his heart. That is you reading your theology into what is not there. I ask you to read it with open mind. Matt 7:21 is bracketed by those who practice evil in their hearts. Good deeds of love from the heart ARE pleasing to God...THAT IS the will of God!
but the bible tells me that unsaved man can never please God and that all his works are wood , hay and stubble. So an unsaved fireman that rushes into a building to save a child might be a hero to men, but if he is unsaved to God that very act is a sin.
But you are presuming to know WHO the unsaved are! How do we know today who will be destined for eternal life? God will save whom He will. Those who think they stand firmly, beware lest they fall! As to the "unsaved" fireman, I doubt that God would treat that as sin...Selfless sacrifice is not against the will of God - recall what Christ did on the cross? Selflsess sacrifice? It might not mean much regarding that fireman's eternal destiny (not knowing anything about him), but I wouldn't say that that act is sinful.
Salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit that brings a man to repentance and faith. When that happens men will testify to the change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit and they will profess Christ as Lord and Savior. The profess is an outward sign of an inward change, much like baptism
True. But what is your definition of a "saved" person?
I think scripture tells us how to know if a man is saved and it definitely tells us that we have an assurance of our own salvation. Think of what Christ told us. He said that we can know a tree by its fruit, we are all called to be fruit inspectors. We are commanded not to be unequally yoked, that implies that we can know the saved abet not perfectly. I can not judge perfectly if another is saved, but I surely know who is not.
All that refers to the present. We can have an idea if we are saved today. But five years from now? Who knows what kind of fruit we will bring forth? Do you know of people who fell away? Before they fell away, do you think they were heading for eternal heaven? We just don't know what the future has in store for us. Also, we are wounded creatures. We cannot know perfectly where we stand before God, even today. I think it is better to approach the Lord in humble confidence that He will save us, rather than an expectation that He will save us.
I am not saying, God is .He says ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags. ALL of our self serving carnal works. That is me and it is you, it is every man .
What about when I abide in Christ? My works are no longer only my own, but the Spirit's, as well. Thus, my deeds of love prompted by the Spirit are meritorious for my salvation. They are no longer self serving works. "In the flesh" refers to those works WITHOUT Christ.
a man s current spiritual condition is clearly evident in his life.
For the most part. But we humans often have a way of fooling ourselves, don't you think? To know our spiritual state, we should ask the Spirit to reveal it to us. Just because we volunteer for this, or do that doesn't mean we are producing good fruits. We really have to look at our motives behind the acts.
Agape...is God loving through us, not us loving to earn brownie points.
Of course. Anyone who thinks that love is earning brownie points doesn't understand what love is. Love is Christ on the Cross. Look at a crucifix. Stare at it. Think of the unconditional love that that Man had to give His life for people who wouldn't even CARE. That is love. Love is selfless. It is totally about giving for the other. Anyone who starts to think about earning anything has left the realm of love. Do you think Christ was thinking about what He was 'earning' while dying? What about Mary when she saw her Son dying? Without love, you won't be saved. LOVE, not brownie points... Whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it in the name of the Lord.
I would say the love is a fruit of our salvation not its roots. It does not make our salvation "effective" but it does make it evident.
I would say you can't love without faith, and faith without love is not worthy of God. Faith is not the root, God is the root. When the Scriptures talk about love, do they mention the Spirit or faith as the catalyst? Whether it is faith or love, it is a gift from the Lord. First comes faith, then comes love. But love doesn't come from faith. If it did, then "all faith, enough to move mountains" would be sufficient to provide saving love - but Paul says it doesn't.
Regards