[HarleyD]

Revised Version:

Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. sits down and really decides if he wants the treasure or not.

Mat 13:45-46 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it. decided that he'd have to think about if for a while. Don't want to jump into anything too rash.

If God meant to say that he gives gifts but hides knowledge of them from people, then he's not really giving gifts.

Nonsense. I would call your attention to this passage.

Num 8:19 "I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel, to perform the service of the sons of Israel at the tent of meeting and to make atonement on behalf of the sons of Israel, so that there will be no plague among the sons of Israel by their coming near to the sanctuary."

God didn't ask Aaron if he wanted the Levites. He simply told him that He HAD GIVEN them to him. Another example:

Gen 30:19-20 Leah conceived again and bore a sixth son to Jacob. Then Leah said, "God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons." So she named him Zebulun.

God didn't ask Leah if she want to conceive. He just gave it to her.

Exactly when do you acquire faith-before or after you believe in God?

[Dionysiusdecordealcis]

You know, Harley, this is not too bright. Whether a man sits down and considers his choice or immediately goes out and sells everything and buys the field makes zero difference as far as refusing/accepting is concerned. Either way he chooses or refuses to act. It's just that in the first scenario, his choice takes longer. Can you really not see how irrelevant your response was?

And the passages from Numbers and Genesis are equally irrelevant. You say that God didn't ask whether the Israelites wanted Levites. Right. He offered them the Levites. But that has nothing to do with the point of my post or with your original claim that we can't refuse God. Your passages from Numbers and Genesis address the question of whether God's offering of a gift is dependent on our acceptance. But I never said it was. I said that a gift only becomes a gift in the full sense of "gift" if it is accepted. Before it is accepted it is an offered gift, when it is accepted it is an accepted gift, when it is refused it is a refused gift.

If you had not led us on this merry little wild goose chase, you might recall that the original point to which I responded was that you claimed that the only reason some men do not have faith is that God did not offer faith to them. You trumpeted how watertight your logic was here.

And I responded that no, there's another possible reason: God offered it and they refused it. Then I pointed out that a gift that cannot be refused is no gift but an imposition.

You then started with your irrelevancies: people don't refuse God's gift but never know the gift.

Your original statement was flat-out absurd but you proudly proclaimed its logic. When I pointed out its logical fallacy you evade and launch irrelevancies.

Only you cannot see how foolish your original "logical" claim was.

I offered you the gift of knowledge about your own foolishness and you blindly reject it. You are right, some people just don't know when they've been offered a gift and thereby they refuse the gift, which was my original point. You refuse the gift because you refuse to think.