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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Campion; annalex; InterestedQuestioner; jo kus
I see you're talking to me again.

Couldn't resist! But I won't keep at it very long. Especially if you don't.

People think they can "refuse" the gift that God sent. The problem is they don't even know the gift exists.

Nice try but same fallacy. A gift unknown to the recipient is not a gift. If God meant to say that he gives gifts but hides knowledge of them from people, then he's not really giving gifts. Perhaps he meant to say this, but, if so, for the life of me, I can't figure out why God, who supposedly knows everything, wouldn't use words that mean what he means instead of using words that don't mean what he means and that are dependent on HarleyD to explain to the rest of the universe.

And before you play gotcha by suggesting that God offers the gift to the person but the person doesn't see it as a gift and in that sense doesn't know that God offered the gift--well, if that's what dear old God really meant, Harley, then that's exactly the same as refusing a proffered gift. If that's what you mean by "not knowing the gift" then you've just agreed with our "God's gifts are refusable" position. It's very possible that I offer you a gift but you think it's poison so you do not "know" it as a gift and thus refuse it. But that's a refusal, for sure. It may be based on sinful "invincible ignorance"--the stubblorn refusal to be convinced of the truth of something--like the Dwarfs in C. S. Lewis's Last Battle who are sitting right in the middle of heaven and refuse to know it to be heaven--but that's their refusal, not God's pulling the wool over their eyes.

The plain meaning of "gift" is that it is offered to someone and the plain meaning of being offered is that the offeree knows it's being offered. If looks upon a truly offered gift as poison, then that' shis problem. And if it's sin that has clouded his vision so he can't see God's gift for a gift, then it's his freely chosen sin that causes him not to see the gift as gift. Unless, of course, you want to say that God makes us sin against our will.

But, suit yourself. I'm sure God thanks you for explaining that he didn't mean what he said. Us biblical literalist Catholics will stick with the plain meaning of gift and avoid such human additions to Scripture, especially human additions to Scripture that turn black into white and plain meanings inside out. I, at least, know what gift means. I don't know that it means "unknown quantity."

1,043 posted on 01/11/2006 1:43:21 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: Dionysiusdecordealcis; kosta50; Campion; annalex; InterestedQuestioner; jo kus; P-Marlowe; ...
Revised Version:

Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. sits down and really decides if he wants the treasure or not.

Mat 13:45-46 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it. decided that he'd have to think about if for a while. Don't want to jump into anything too rash.

If God meant to say that he gives gifts but hides knowledge of them from people, then he's not really giving gifts.

Nonsense. I would call your attention to this passage.

God didn't ask Aaron if he wanted the Levites. He simply told him that He HAD GIVEN them to him. Another example:

God didn't ask Leah if she want to conceive. He just gave it to her.

Exactly when do you acquire faith-before or after you believe in God?

1,047 posted on 01/11/2006 3:18:18 PM PST by HarleyD ("No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." John 6:44)
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