[HarleyD]

I see you're talking to me again.

People think they can "refuse" the gift that God sent. The problem is they don't even know the gift exists. Consider this exchange:

Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, "Give Me a drink," you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." John 4:10

Our Lord Jesus plainly shows that men do not know the gift of God. If they knew about the gift of God they would ask for that gift.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen, Harley.

How much greater is the gift that cannot be returned, made void, broken, replaced, refused, altered or denied?

"Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ."

Not "saved by grace and our good efforts, clever works, acceptance of the gift, righteous choices or striving will."

Saved by grace alone.

[Dionysiusdecordealcis]

I see you're talking to me again.

Couldn't resist! But I won't keep at it very long. Especially if you don't.

People think they can "refuse" the gift that God sent. The problem is they don't even know the gift exists.

Nice try but same fallacy. A gift unknown to the recipient is not a gift. If God meant to say that he gives gifts but hides knowledge of them from people, then he's not really giving gifts. Perhaps he meant to say this, but, if so, for the life of me, I can't figure out why God, who supposedly knows everything, wouldn't use words that mean what he means instead of using words that don't mean what he means and that are dependent on HarleyD to explain to the rest of the universe.

And before you play gotcha by suggesting that God offers the gift to the person but the person doesn't see it as a gift and in that sense doesn't know that God offered the gift--well, if that's what dear old God really meant, Harley, then that's exactly the same as refusing a proffered gift. If that's what you mean by "not knowing the gift" then you've just agreed with our "God's gifts are refusable" position. It's very possible that I offer you a gift but you think it's poison so you do not "know" it as a gift and thus refuse it. But that's a refusal, for sure. It may be based on sinful "invincible ignorance"--the stubblorn refusal to be convinced of the truth of something--like the Dwarfs in C. S. Lewis's Last Battle who are sitting right in the middle of heaven and refuse to know it to be heaven--but that's their refusal, not God's pulling the wool over their eyes.

The plain meaning of "gift" is that it is offered to someone and the plain meaning of being offered is that the offeree knows it's being offered. If looks upon a truly offered gift as poison, then that' shis problem. And if it's sin that has clouded his vision so he can't see God's gift for a gift, then it's his freely chosen sin that causes him not to see the gift as gift. Unless, of course, you want to say that God makes us sin against our will.

But, suit yourself. I'm sure God thanks you for explaining that he didn't mean what he said. Us biblical literalist Catholics will stick with the plain meaning of gift and avoid such human additions to Scripture, especially human additions to Scripture that turn black into white and plain meanings inside out. I, at least, know what gift means. I don't know that it means "unknown quantity."

[kosta50]

Our Lord Jesus plainly shows that men do not know the gift of God.

But, according to you, men (like you) understand predestination?

That's really consistent!