Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[wmfights]

"It never ceases to amaze me at how much help you think God needs. God can't interpret His own scripture, He can't handle saving us by Himself, He's too busy to forgive all the sins, and now this. I believe in a MUCH more powerful God:

Rev. 22:13 : I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (KJV)"
_________________________________________

I'm also surprised by how weak GOD is portrayed to be by some of our learned friends. Maybe this is what JESUS was referring to when he said we needed to come to him like the children, just truly believe and KNOW that what he says will be.

[wmfights]

"The point remains, the goats are goats because they do not do good works, and they are condemned to hell. Hence, good works, in addition to faith, are what makes you a sheep."
______________________________

What works?

How are you supposed to do these works?

Can you hire surrogates to do these works or must you do them yourself.

How many of these works are you supposed to do?

[kosta50]

"Evil" here is meant in the general sense of being relieved of trouble, disease, bad neighbors, and, yes, Satan

No, it doesn't. The Greek word used is a nominative form ponerou and means the evil one, the satan; it certanly does not stand for "trouble and disease."

The same is evident from Slavonic version: "но избави нас от лукаваго"(but rescue us from the evil one)

[Agrarian]

I then looked at what St. Augustine has to say. He says that "daily bread" is three-fold: first, asking for what we need physically to live; second, the word of God, divine precepts, hymns, etc...; third, the Eucharist (regarding which he criticizes the Easterners for not receiving it daily, BTW...)

[conservonator]

Now if you are saved, then you cannot lost that salvation (Eph.4:30).

What exactly do you think that means? If we go a little further in Ephesians we learn that we are to do and not to do certain things as a baptized or regenerated man. Our baptism gives us the capacity to act with the grace made available to us through that first and glorious sacrament. To not grieve the Holy Spirit is to turn away from that saving grace He offers us in His love: IOW to cast off our salvation, to lose it. A gift given can be refused.

The race being run has to do with rewards not salvation. (1Cor.9:24-26)

What is the one reward that Paul preaches about? Gold? material wealth? power? Of course not, His only mission was to spread the good news of salvation, that is the only reward that matters. Also, if we read a bit further in to Paul's letter, we see that he writes in verse 27 of the same book and chapter: "No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that , after having preached ot others, I myself should be disqualified".

The final glorification has to do with our receiving our resurrection Body, not salvation (Rom.8).

We don't hope for what is assured, do we.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life (1Jn.5:13)

Belief surpasses mere intellectual ascent, the belief that John writes is dynamic, transcendent and not easy to attain, many are called, few are chosen.

[conservonator]

Very nice, thanks!

[Forest Keeper]

It is the reverse: historically, the oral teaching preceded Sola Scriptura by about 400 years, and given the limited literacy of the laity, by additional 1000 years or so. Of course no one blames you for teaching orally now when for whatever reason the scripture is unaccessible, but that is just neither here or there, -- except it again illustrates that what is necessary for evangelization is knowledgeable teachers, and not written scripture.

No, Sola Scriptura is not the Bible itself, it is a teaching about the Bible that is supported by scripture. Oral teaching is consistent with Sola Scriptura to the extent that the oral teaching mirrors what the Bible says. Once extra-scriptural teaching is added, then Sola Scriptura is violated. ... What is necessary for evangelizing is knowledgeable teachers who teach only what is scriptural.

[Forest Keeper]

Do you think it covers the Deuterocanonicals, as it was part of the scripture Timothy knew from his infancy (cf 2 Timothy 3:15)?

I wouldn't think so, since God did not cause it to be canonized and recognized from the time the Bible was put together. It seems a lot of people had serious problems with these works, and that they were made "official" ONLY as a response to little old Luther helps to persuade me that they are not scripture. If it really was men who put the Bible together and no Protestants were of that group, then you all had your chance. :)

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "Does God really teach us that there are matters too trivial to bother Him with?"

Well, there is a commandment not to use the name of God in vain. Remember Huck Finn praying for a fishing rod? It would seem reasonable for Huck to ask St. Andrew the Apostle, patron of fishermen, to see if his desire to go fishing was worth a miracle.

So unscriptural tradition teaches that there is a threshhold of importance that must be crossed in order for God to hear our prayer? If I'm stuck in rush hour and pray to get to work on time, I am taking the Lord's name in vain? This is amazing. Instead, I shouldn't bother God because He's too busy, but rather I should pray to the patron saint of traffic? Jesus taught us how to pray. He said to pray in this way "Our Father ...". Jesus never prayed to a dead person, He only prayed to the Father. Sounds like a plan to me.

[HarleyD]

In short, you have no clue why Christ asked you to pray Our Father:

Yes, yes. I seem to be accused of that a lot lately.

"Thy will be done", you acknowledge, is a meaningless petition.

Thy will be done-acknowledging God's sovereignty-is NOT a meaningless petition. What precisely do you think it means "on earth as it is in heaven". Is this meaningless too since we can't control the events of heaven? Do you think that God cannot control the events of heaven? You completely misinterpret this.

You completely miss the purpose of prayer (along with about 95% of the Christian population these days). It is NOT a laundry list to a Santa Claus God to do what you want. Prayer is to bring glory to God. It's because we don't truly know the proper way to prayer that the Spirit prays for us.

"epiousion" is exactly "supersubstantial".

I liked Agrarian thoughtful explanation. It is true that epiousion occurs only in the Lord's Prayer but I'm not sure how unique it is. It would require research in comparing other Greek text of the time to see if it is truly unique.

That being said, there still remains NOTHING that supports this as the Eucharist. You are reading far more into this then what is there simply to boaster a flawed doctrine.

[kosta50]

And the fact is that Luther's views on anything are irrelevant to what the scripture teach on the subject

That goes to for everyone.

[HarleyD]

Instead, I shouldn't bother God because He's too busy, but rather I should pray to the patron saint of traffic?

LOL!!! Is there a patron saint of money??? How about chilli dogs??? I did a check and (at this moment) there are 5150 saints (not including the patron saints of football-the New Orleans Saints). You can pray to bee keepers, horseshoe makers, hunters, and pork butchers. There are saints for those who are afraid of wasps, rats, mad dogs, and the night. You can pray to the saints of oversleeping (if you want), desperate causes, cooking (something I need) and computer users (??? Saint Bill Gates???). Here's the list for those who would like to extend their roledex PATRON SAINTS INDEX

And I guess there is a patron saint of financial causes-Infant Jesus of Prague (sigh).

[kosta50]

The race being run has to do with rewards not salvation. (1Cor.9:24-26)

What race is he talking about? If one already has the prize of salvation, who's competing? You know +Paul says a lot of strange strings, such as

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Eph 6:12)

Our struggle is not agianst flesh and blood? Our carnal nature?

But against the powers and rulers, world forces of this darkness? Which specific darkness is he talking about?

Then he jumps to "spiritual forces" of wickedness in heavenly places.

So, we are not really resisitng our carnal nature, but dark forces of the world (I presume he's talking about the earth), and wicked spirits in!?

First, he is painting a picture suggestive of dualism, rather than personal theosis, and then he reveals that there are — wicked spirits in heavenly places.

This sure sounds Gnostic to me, especially the last part.

[Forest Keeper]

Our fallen nature is not sin, FK; it is a consequence of sin, a defect that is inherited through generations.

I know this is one point on which Protestants and Orthodox disagree very strongly. But even if sin is an inherited defect, how do you explain:

Rom. 6:23 : For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I was equating "sin" with spiritual death. I see it as much more than a wounding. Do you think that "death" in this verse only refers to physical death, when the context is as plain as day?

FK: "...it does not follow to me that we can take credit for the good we do."

Of course not! All goodness comes from God. When we do something good, give it to God. When people thank us, accept in the name of God.

How can you take no credit if you were the one who chose to do a good work, using your free will? You can't believe that God moves through us, as that would thwart free will. Therefore, if you cooperate, then why do you not deserve any credit?

[jo kus]

Read this:

I see your point, if that is your view on the Eastern Catholics.

Regards

[jo kus]

What prevented Christ from saying so, if that is the case? What about the preceding parable in Matthew 25, where it is shown that it is what you do with your talent of faith, not the possession of it, that counts for salvation.

Last time I asked that, I got a deafening silence... Unfortunately, as you observed, some people will not be moved by logical arguments.

Regards

[jo kus]

All of this is a long way of explaining why I said "at least officially," when I said that Catholicism had given up Uniatism as a means of unity. This is still a very, very sensitive area for the Orthodox, and it never ceases to amaze me that even knowledgable Catholics speak about the Eastern Catholic churches as entities that could possibly aid in achieving unity, when their effect has been exactly the opposite...

Why should this amaze you? This isn't exactly front-page stuff for us. I hadn't read the Balamand Agreement, never heard of it. Perhaps it is front and center for you, but it is practically unheard of in the US, unless one is Eastern, I suppose. I do thank you and Kolo for your correcting me on this, but don't be surprised that other Catholics have the same concept. Very few of us are aware of your points of view on this subject, as you are unaware of many Catholic issues.

Regards

[Forest Keeper]

Hello All! I just wanted to let everyone know that for the next 10 days or so, I'm going to be on vacation and offline. The family unit is motoring down to FLA. for some R&R. I'll try to pick up where I left off when I get back. Just don't cross 10,000 without me! :) May God bless you all, and I will miss you.

[jo kus]

How could one be a disciple of Jesus ... andd be ignorant of the the person of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, I am just quoting what the Scriptures say. Apollos was preaching the Word, although not as accurately as he could have (as he was taken aside by Aquilla and Priscilla). This is common sense, as people even today claim to have the Spirit and preach PART of God's Word - but this doesn't follow that the Spirit resides within them. Even an atheist can read the Bible and learn things from it and spit it back out when asked.

"This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John." Acts 18:25

As you can see, the Spirit was working in Apollos, but He had not been baptized in the Spirit yet. I think that the confusion is that some people believe that if the Spirit is present, a person is saved. This cannot be the case, as the Spirit has entered at least ONCE into EVERY person - as Paul describes in Romans 2 when discussing the Law written on the hearts of pagans, by the spirit. It is in the Baptism event when the Spirit comes in power and places His seal upon the person.

Of course, the ritual itself doesn't do the work. We often point to the Naaman story in the OT. He too doubted that the water would do any good for curing him of leprosy. After being healed, he realized it was God working through the water that cured (saved) him. In the same way, so are we. The water and ritual is merely an outward sign that something invisibly wonderful is happening.

My conclusion was that these were disciples ... of John (the Baptist) and, as such, ... had only received his baptism (for repentence).

Certainly. I think Christianity was in a great flux during this point in history. Teaching was by word of mouth, and probably not very comprehensive or cohesive. Perhaps people were more concerned with teaching the Risen Lord then the Holy Ghost.

I also note that the Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul laid hands on them ... not as of their christian baptism.

I would say that this was when Paul conferred upon them the office of Holy Orders, as these men became the leaders of the Church at Ephesus, whom Paul bid farewell to on the way to Jerusalem.

I just found out that Randall passed away earlier this week. It is so difficult to understand. They actually found a marrow donor for Randall several weeks ago, ... but the doctors said that Randall, by then, was too weak to survive the transplant operation. We had been praying for him to be strengthened so that he might receive the transplant. But it appears that it was not meant to be.

I am sorry to hear that, for the sake of Randall's mother and those close to him. I imagine it is a difficult situation for those who have been praying for him and close to him - and see God take Randall anyway. I pray this doesn't weaken anyone's faith in God and I will pray for the peace of the Lord to settle on the family and the repose of Randall's soul today at Adoration.

Joe

[jo kus]

The other night I was watching this program on EWTN where they were talking about praying the liturgy of the Hours and exhalting Desert Fathers! To hear this from the Catholic clergy and lay people just floored me – in a nice way! Usually, the Catholics don't go that far back, let alone speak about Desert Fathers (the hermits) as role models.

I think in the past, Catholics had been so focused on St. Thomas and St. Augustine, that many had forgotten about the Fathers of the first 700 years except on their feast days. Now, because of particular theologians, we are finding that the Church Fathers had a lot to say about events SIMILAR to what we are facing today - teaching about the Lord to a largely pagan world. The Church Fathers powerfully speak to these pagans, and they are great examples on how we, too, can return people back to the Faith of our Fathers. I think the Desert Fathers are good examples because they were able to sacrifice and become ascetic, a word that is hardly heard here in the West...

The Liturgy of the Hours has always been a practice for the clergy, but now the Laity are doing it, as well. I do the Morning and Evening Prayersj privately. It has enabled me to pray the Psalms on a regular basis.

Regards