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To: annalex; kosta50; Agrarian; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
In short, you have no clue why Christ asked you to pray Our Father:

Yes, yes. I seem to be accused of that a lot lately.

"Thy will be done", you acknowledge, is a meaningless petition.

Thy will be done-acknowledging God's sovereignty-is NOT a meaningless petition. What precisely do you think it means "on earth as it is in heaven". Is this meaningless too since we can't control the events of heaven? Do you think that God cannot control the events of heaven? You completely misinterpret this.

You completely miss the purpose of prayer (along with about 95% of the Christian population these days). It is NOT a laundry list to a Santa Claus God to do what you want. Prayer is to bring glory to God. It's because we don't truly know the proper way to prayer that the Spirit prays for us.

"epiousion" is exactly "supersubstantial".

I liked Agrarian thoughtful explanation. It is true that epiousion occurs only in the Lord's Prayer but I'm not sure how unique it is. It would require research in comparing other Greek text of the time to see if it is truly unique.

That being said, there still remains NOTHING that supports this as the Eucharist. You are reading far more into this then what is there simply to boaster a flawed doctrine.

8,270 posted on 06/09/2006 2:27:01 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luke 24:45)
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To: HarleyD; annalex

"I'm not sure how unique it is."

Trust me on this one. My Liddel and Scott (the big one with all the representative citations from classical and patristic literature, not the condensed one) cites only the Matthew and Luke passages. The editors of the NPNF volume of Chysostom's commentary on St. Matthew say that it is found only in those passages, and in subsequent Christian literature citing those verses. Origen, as I said, apparently (the work in which the citation is has not, to my knowledge, been translated into English) that the word was otherwise unknown -- and whatever one thinks of his funny ideas on some things, the thoroughness and carefulness of his Scriptural scholarship cannot be denied by anyone who reads his works. If he says that the word seems to have been coined by Christ or his apostles (I suppose depending on whether Christ ever taught them the prayer in Greek or not), then I think it is pretty safe to say that it was a brand-new word.

"That being said, there still remains NOTHING that supports this as the Eucharist. You are reading far more into this then what is there simply to boaster a flawed doctrine."

Well, as you know, I agree that the plain meaning of the word seems to have been "daily" and/or "necessary/sufficient," referring to the physical needs of daily life, and emphasizing that we shouldn't ask for more than what we need for the day at hand. So I would agree with you that to call it 'supersubstantial' bread would be very misleading for a 21st century English speaker. Even St. Augustine's commentaries go straight to a "daily" or "day by day" discussion, so he didn't seem to imply that even this Latin word was an obvious and plain reference to the Eucharist.

But enough Fathers have discussed it as a secondary or tertiary deeper meaning along with the plain meaning that I think it a gross overstatement to say that there is nothing that supports Alex's preferred reading. (I must note St. Cyprian and St. John Cassian go straight to the Eucharist, and only the Eucharist, but the passages are brief, and they are emphasizing spiritual meanings throughout the works in which these are found.)

We must ponder on the fact that this, again, is a specially coined word, or at least a very carefully chosen rare word. That alone should indicate that like so much of Scripture, there may be deep and layered meanings, or that at the least there are subtle shades of meaning intended.

And as the resident Reformed Christian who likes to trace your tradition through certain of the Western Fathers, I would think that the fact that St. Augustine considers it to refer in part to a daily reception of communion should mean something to you.


8,284 posted on 06/09/2006 6:36:19 AM PDT by Agrarian
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Agrarian; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
acknowledging God's sovereignty-is NOT a meaningless petition

"Thy will be done" is not acknowledging that the Divine will is done on earth, it is, precisely, a petition that it be so.

You completely miss the purpose of prayer (along with about 95% of the Christian population these days). It is NOT a laundry list to a Santa Claus God to do what you want. Prayer is to bring glory to God

This is a truncation of the prayer life, and of course, in the process of this truncating you have excluded one prayer Christ expressly asked you to pray. This is exactly the reason why I asked you how you understand "Our Father": it is most patently a prayer of petition. The part of it that is praise is this, in its entirety "Hallowed be thy name". The rest is nothing but petition, and Christ ordained it to be said.

Mindful that words of Christ do not always convince a Calvinist, here is St. Paul: "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1).

there still remains NOTHING that supports this as the Eucharist

Yeah, right. "epi" = "on top"; "ousia" = substance. It is the "needful" that is idiomatic meaning.

8,304 posted on 06/09/2006 4:33:42 PM PDT by annalex
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