Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[ItsOurTimeNow]

I concur with Marlowe's reply to your line of questioning, Cronos. In order to save time, I won't reiterate what's already been said.

Although I will add:

>>so if you are in the "elect", you can lead a hedonistic life and yet wind up in heaven<<

Salvation brings about a godly sorrow for sin. While we still sin, it grieves us because it grievs the Holy Spirit. I daresay a saved Christian will not sin with complete "carte blanche" impunity and not have it bother his or her conscience. We grieve for our sin, and it brings about our desire to repent and "go and sin no more".

>>if you aren't in the "elect", you can live like a saint and still burn?<<

Works don't save. Just as baptism doesn't save. Just as "The Church" doesn't save. Only Christ saves.

[kosta50]

In fact, if one takes the word "elect" in the sense that you've put it...that makes sense

Life is not a gift; it's a loan. God put us on this earth for a purpose known but to Him. If life were a gift we had a right to, we wouldn't have to give it back, but we do.

As with any loan, we can do good with it, by multiplying and sharing His blessings (2 Cor 9:9-11), or we can squnder it on selfish, useless and idle things. Our nature tends towards the latter.

But, in giving us life and His blessings, God "elects" us. If we fail to make that loan worthy of His love, that is our fault.

[jo kus]

I do not understand your statement that if there is an elect, there are no sinners. All of the elect were and are sinners. The elect have simply been purchased, bought and paid for, and forgiven. We are wholly owned within the family of God. The sins Christ died for include all sins of the elect, past and future.

The Scriptures tell us that Christ died for the sin of ALL men, not just the elect...Thus, all men are redeemed. But if all men are redeemed, why are all men not saved?

Regards

[P-Marlowe]

(2Ti 1:9 KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[P-Marlowe]

So, if you have faith, you are saved, no matter if you are Catholic, Orthodox, lutheran, Baptist etc?

Read the words of the Apostle:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9 KJV)

[P-Marlowe]

when people talk of an "elect", that God has chosen people to be damned and not to be.

Has God chosen you for salvation?

If so, then when did he do it?

What does the Bible say about when God chose you for salvation? Do you know?

[kosta50]

The issue of "works" as understood in +Paul's Epistles must be considered only within the context of Old Covenant Judaism: if you obey the Law, you will be acceptable to God (i.e. "saved"). +Paul was simply re-educating his own fellow Jews (and confused Gentiles) that this is not so, because -- technically speaking -- an observant Jew does not have to be a believer; faith is not required to be "just."

As Christians, we are obliged to share in our blessings out of love for our beighbors. So, good works through faith are not a choice, but an obligation that comes with faith. Love compels us to such works, not expecting anything in return.

So, the ceasless Protestant quoting of +Paul and applying it to Christians is out of context, let's be clear on that. He was educating those who did not see the difference and believed that works make them righteous.

[kosta50]

Well, that's 2 Timothy, not 2 Titus. I just wanted to clarify that.

[P-Marlowe]

Well, that's 2 Timothy, not 2 Titus. I just wanted to clarify that.

LOL.

[kosta50]

Salvation brings about a godly sorrow for sin

Salvation brings life everlasting. Conversion brings us godly sorrow for sin.

[kosta50]

LOL

Precisely! One doe snot use two letters to define biblical chapters. Thank you.

[jo kus]

Works don't save. Just as baptism doesn't save. Just as "The Church" doesn't save. Only Christ saves.

Christ chose to save us through the above means. God saves us using many different instruments.

Regards

[kosta50]

just kidding....:-)

[P-Marlowe]

Precisely! One doe snot use two letters to define biblical chapters. Thank you.

Well I do. Do you have a Papal encyclical that forbids it?

And BTW, there is no 2 Titus.

[P-Marlowe]

just kidding....:-)

I was hoping.

[ItsOurTimeNow]

>>Christ chose to save us<<

I wouldn't label baptism as a means - it's an ordinance, and meant to take place AFTER someone has been regenerated by the Spirit, as a public confession of faith.

The means that God uses will involve His Word, so while people may be saved while AT church, in hearing the message, it's dishonest to say that the church is what saves.

[kosta50]

Well I do. Do you have a Papal encyclical that forbids it?

Well, I am Orthodox, so Papal encyclicals do not apply (yet), because regrettably we are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome (over some "minor" :-) theological issues that have kept us apart for about 1,000 years), but why must you Protestants immediately accuse the Pope for everything the Catholics or Orthodox (when they are confused with Cathoics) have to say?

As I said, I was kidding ... some of this tends to get very heavy, and a little lightening up is not out of place... :-)

[P-Marlowe]

Christ chose to save us through the above means. God saves us using many different instruments.

No, Christ chose to save you by grace alone through faith alone. Show me anywhere in the Bible where it says you are saved through any other means or any other instrument.

[ItsOurTimeNow]

>>Salvation brings life everlasting. Conversion brings us godly sorrow for sin.<<

You were taken to school over this before, do you really want to go through it again? You didn't listen the first time, what makes you think taking this for another round will make a difference?

[kosta50]

it's an ordinance, and meant to take place AFTER someone has been regenerated by the Spirit, as a public confession of faith

So, why was our Lord baptized?