Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Great post.
Hooray for the ones that do! How smart they are!
Regards, as always.
Maybe this is why you are so comfortable with Rome. You seem to agree on a hierarchy among mortal men, in direct opposition to Scripture.
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
I've never known anyone who divided the redeemed into the "elect" and the "others who also go to heaven."
I've learned a lot on this thread.
The poor in spirit
Those who mourn
The meek
Those who hunger and thrist for righteousness
The mericiful
The pure in heart
The peacemakers
Those persecuted because of righteousness
The children
Those who do not return evil for evil
Those who love and pray for their enemies
The baptized who believe
The repentant
...
No need for theatrics, dear lady. There is no hierarchy among us when it comes to unrighteousness, we are all born with it. But God chose Moses, and Christ chose the Apostles, among multitudes of other people, to do what the Covenant demands: to make the God of Abraham known to all the nations of the world. And I don't believe you are an Apostle or Moses.
This view of "free-will" versus election resolves the issue for me.
Who are the “Whosoever”?
They are those in time, i.e. from creation until the onset of eternity future, who were dead in trespasses and sin but whom God chose, before the foundation of the world, to be saved - as a consequence they have, or will, experience regeneration. Those chosen, the Bible often refers to as the elect. The Bible tells us that the elect are saved by grace, through faith (and that not of themselves but a gift from God, that none may boast) for good works that they might walk in them.
Being formerly spiritually dead they had no ability, by natural faith or otherwise, to believe. But they received, as a gift, saving faith when God regenerated them by what the Lord Jesus referred to as “re-birth”. That same power which God used to raise Christ Jesus from the dead was used by God to regenerate the elect from a state of being “dead in trespasses & sin” to a state of “being in Christ”.
When the Scripture refers to faith, saving faith, as a gift from God it must not be viewed as a gift which one can refuse, but similar to a gift such as athletic ability that one receives at natural birth through parentage.
Every mention in Scripture concerning “whosoever shall call …”, “whosoever will …”, “whosever believes …”, “come to me you who are …” etc. is underlined by the doctrine that God made that soul one of the elect; and that fact manifests itself at the appointed time as one of the “whosoever”. Whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD...
Not in the sense that I am speaking, or Paul. If that man cast out demons BECAUSE he thought he was earning his way to heaven (a work without love), then it was useless. A work, even to move mountains, is nothing without love. And so, casting out demons is nothing, without love.
Even in the sacramental system ( that as a protestant consider works) does not one expect that there are "graces" connected to correct participation? Is not those expectations God owing one for a correct choice or work or participation?
We receive graces ONLY because God promised that He would come to us through such contact. He promised that He would forgive our sins through the power of the Apostles. He promised that He would be our food to eat, our spiritual nourishment. Through the sacraments, we receive God’s graces to continue the journey. They are not works, but means of contacting the one we love.
I think we might agree that an unsaved man can not bring forth good fruit as he is not attached to the vine, so all his fruit would be bad to the Lord. correct?
Towards salvation, I think so. An unsaved atheist might do something “good”, even “loving” because he might be cooperating with God’s Law written in his heart at that time. But we are judged not by one deed, but our entire life. An atheist will not walk in faith in God. So in the end, I think we can agree.
Now on the wise man ... Is wisdom a gift of God or is it like love in your opinion , self generated?
I never said love was self-generated! We love because of Christ. Wisdom, like love, is a gift of the Holy Spirit, who blows where He wills, even to the unsaved. In the Scripture, for example, we find cases of God using pagans to do His will – like Cyrus of the Persians. It is the one who uses his gifts often (the Talents parable) who will be rewarded – not based on his own work, of course, but that he used the talents given to him by God.
Do we agree that there is a wisdom of the carnal man and a wisdom that is from God?
Yes, you have clearly shown that there is a worldly wisdom and a wisdom that follows the ways of God (which do not seem wise to the worldly – tongue twister!!). Carnal wisdom will not be of value, unless it happens to coincide with God’s will, such as those atheists who feel compelled to feed the hungry.
So the man that builds his house on a rock, does not do that out of his own wisdom, but out of the wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirits guidance.
I agree.
To whom was he speaking when he told us to love one and other? He was speaking to the converted, the saved , believers . That is because within them dwell the Love of God and the Holy Spirit.
I think Christ intended that we love everyone, even our enemies, don’t you agree? Doesn’t Christ say in the Sermon on the Mount:
You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:43-48)
In John 13, Jesus is merely giving us confirmation – that we KNOW we are His disciples IF we love – not because we make a one-time faith declaration. We KNOW we are disciples BECAUSE we love everyone – not just our friends.
The unsaved can not fulfill this command of Christ, only believers can .
It is potentially to all people, since Christ told His Apostles to teach and preach to the entire WORLD (Mat 28:20) ALL that He taught them. The Gospel is NOT meant just for the “saved”, although ONLY the saved will obey it!
Can you fulfill that command? Can you love ANYONE as He has loved ?
Not without Christ, I can’t. But if He abides in me, for example, through the Eucharist, I can love even my enemies and wish them the best for their sake.
See we are back to the issue of the love of God indwelling the believer versus the love of men that comes from a carnal heart. God sees no benefit to the "good works"coming from a carnal heart.. Scripture indicates that the only love that is pleasing to God is His love ( and his work).
And I agree that “carnal love” is not meritorious for salvation. I don’t think it is “sinful”, but it is not going to be of value. However, how does one judge whether it is carnal or spiritual love? I would say the inner motivation. If a person does something totally for the sake of the other (emulating Christ), then I would say that deed is inspired by the Spirit and is worthy to be counted as meritorious, even if done by a Muslim. Who are we to judge whom the ‘saved’ are? We just don’t know while alive on earth. If we judge a tree by its fruits, and we see a productive “tree”, we presume that the Spirit is working within that person, EVEN if that person doesn’t fit into our little religious definitions of who is saved (belong to “x” church or not).
I agree that our "judgment" of the fruit is temporal and not eternal. There are many evil persons that come to Christ in faith on their death beds. But that does not mean that we are not to make judgments in the here and now. Seeing a man that is a pimp, that denies God should cause us to present the gospel to him. If we do not judge that the man would be lost should he die that night, we fail to follow the great commandment. Failure to see the man you are about to get into a business contract with is a thief and a liar and a non believer cause us to deny the words of Christ that we not be unequally yoked.
Well said. We just shouldn’t jump to conclusions about another person.
May I ask why you believe the gift of discernment is listed in the gifts of the indwelling Holy Spirit if we are to hold all men as "the same"?
I am not saying that all men are the same, just that we shouldn’t “hate” others because we “think” they are of the “unsaved”. We don’t know WHO is unsaved, really. The Gift of Discernment, I think, is not so much about judging other people’s status with God, but determining the correct path to take – “what is God’s will for us in this particular event that is happening to me?”. That is what discernment is.
When you say that we will be 'judged" on our faith working through love" are you talking about judgment to salvation or damnation or judgment for rewards ?
I am not aware of ANYWHERE in Scripture of a place that talks about judgment as receiving lesser rewards. It always seems to be about either entering into eternal bliss, or not entering into eternal bliss. Regarding judgment, we are judged based on how well we used the talents God gave us. We are judged how well we used the Spirit’s gifts. We are judged how well we loved, BECAUSE we abided in Christ. Basically, we are judged because we trusted in our Father and cooperated with His Will for us, not because of anything we did ALONE.
As a mother, you might appreciate this analogy…
Say you and your two year old daughter are going to bake cookies. You include her because you love her, not because you need her. You “let” her mix the batter, or place the batter on the cookie sheets. You do this together, a work of love, not because she is earning anything. You enjoy being with her, doing it together. You don’t CARE if she is not needed to make the cookies. That is not the purpose of the activity. And when Daddy comes home and your daughter says “look, Daddy, I made cookies”, would you get upset? Would you say “How dare you say you made the cookies? You are stealing my glory and honor and praise due me! You can do nothing alone!” Of course not. And this is what is going on between God and us. We really CAN say “I made the cookies”, although technically, I couldn’t have done it without the Spirit. It is a work of love. God deeply desires to be with us and work with us, now and in eternal heaven.
Does that make more sense? This is the Catholic point of view on “works” and cooperation with God.
Scripture on that please? {being saved by Baptism}
“Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3: 4-5)
“Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? 38But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call” (Acts 2: 37-39)
“He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned” (Mark 16:16)
why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. (Acts 22:16)
For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:2-4)
There are another half dozen or so, but this is enough.
And that says what about needing to do works to be saved? Paul later says what he meant by that : 1Cr 2:4, Rom 1:16
Well, of course, our love IS a power of God. Wouldn’t you say that a person who is able to love in the face of persecution and despair is displaying the power of God? Isn’t God’s Power shown the greatest during our weakness?
James teaches that if there are no works there is no saving faith. He is addressing those that may have a profession of faith, yet do not have saving faith in Christ. He does not say that if there is works they give you faith, rather that the works of God come out of your faith in Christ. This book was written to the saved,he was teaching them not how to be saved, but how the world will know that they are Christians.
Pretty much, although I would say that our “works of love” that display our faith come from the Spirit, not our faith. Faith is like getting to first base. Because we get to first doesn’t mean we will score a run. It is only the first step in an ongoing journey.
As I have pointed out works that are pleasing to God are the works He ordains and does through us. It is HE that makes our works worthy not us.
I agree. But let us not forget our “part” in the “work”. At a given moment, we have a choice – to do a good deed or not. We are not irresistibly forced to do something good. Thus, it is OUR good deed (mine and Christ working within me. Without Him, I couldn’t do it, and without me, He allows the good deed to go undone).
Abraham was justified before men when he placed his only son on the altar, they were able to see his faith, and the story is still told how it was he trusted God and had faith in God to keep His promise.
There was no one with Abraham to see that. Read the story more carefully. The servants stayed behind. The test was for Abraham. That way, after the fact, he KNEW that he did God’s will. He KNEW he was justified. It was not for the sake of other men to see, but for Abraham HIMSELF. Of course, God already knew.
So then it is your position that if one does not do wrks one loses their salvation? Are the works then for Gods glory or your eternal salvation? Are they serving God or a means to an end?
I hope by the time you get this far, you will see that “my” (Catholic) position is that we must continue to walk in faith. We must continue to cooperate with the graces (talents) that God gave/gives us. We must show our faith through love. If we don’t love, we aren’t saved for heaven. The love we show has several purposes, I suppose. First, it gives glory to God. It also shows Christ to the world. It brings others the truth. Of course, it brings us to fulfillment of our destiny, which even begins in THIS world (as Christ came to bring life, and to live it even today, to the fullest). Our love also brings witness to the world of the truth of God’s Gospel. And of course, finally, it shows we are of Christ.
Indeed the elect will persevere, not in their own strength or power or works, but by the grace of God .
Agree
…Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity—that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21–28; 5:1–11)?
Yes, there is nothing I can do alone. My sins deserve eternal punishment. By the grace of God, I can be saved.
Indeed we have much agreement. So much so that i must ask you, is one saved by faith or faith and works? If by faith and works, mustn't the faith proceed the works? If our love and works flow out of the indwelling Holy Spirit, must that not mean that the faith has saved us and made us a worthy home for the Holy Spirit in which to dwell. (I assume we agree that the holy Spirit does not live in unregenerate non believers ( saved men)
We do agree on a lot. It is a matter of figuring out the terms. Once we do that, I think we understand each other better. For example, I hope to have shown you that although we talk about “works” as part of salvation, it is not something we do to earn anything, nor is it something we have done by ourselves. Love is something from God, given back for the sake of God. Yes, faith proceeds the love. We are saved by faith, but not faith alone. That is an important distinction. Unless, of course, you consider your definition of faith to include obedience to God. If we said faith means “intellectual knowledge, trust in God, and obedience to His will”, then I think we could say we are saved by faith alone. Howeve, I am not aware of many defining faith in that way. Personally, after reading the Scriptures, I don’t see how we can factor out love from the formula of salvation. Without it, is it possible for someone to be saved? How much faith does that person possess if he doesn’t have love for his neighbor or God?
Regards
Please consider me, along with Luther, a heretic as regards to enough of your dogma for us to reach that conclusion; God will view us differently; we have the One Mediator as our public defender; that not of ourselves but a gift from God.
You're so cute when you're condescending.
There exists in life the elect and the reprobate. That's just how God ordered His creation, Kosta. We have no certainty which is which, but we have a pretty good idea because people are known by their fruits. Men are either healthy branches that bring forth good fruit, or men are dead branches that bring forth bad fruit. And we know what happens to each of those branches.
The wheat and the tares can look alike -- until the harvest.
So stop banging your head against Scripture and recognize the Good News that's contained therein.
All those who possess Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ are saved.
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
Not one soul feels he has anything but "free-will" when he chooses to believe God in a saving way. Later upon reading with understanding, he will soon realize that it was God all along. That when he reached out to accept salvation God behind the scenes had caused his hand to move.
What in the world is the downside to believing this? Why do men balk at giving God all the glory for their salvation?
Maybe because the more glory there is for God, the less glory there is for men and institutions.
"The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock. but also to cause them to knock and ask." -- AUGUSTINE
Not all those I mentioned necessarily believe in Trinitarian God, and Jesus as their Saviour.
Shucks I thought it was my idea.
Well, that's what Scripture says, that Christ died for the sin of all men. While Christ's work opened the gates of heaven potentially for all men, WE must (with God's help) respond to God's grace and take advantage of the offer.
But the shed blood of Christ is not wasted and Christ did not suffer indiscriminately. Christ's atonement was sufficient for all the world, but effective for the elect, as determined by God from before the foundation of the world.
I agree with that statement. Christ offers sufficient grace for all men, but it is only efficacious for the saved. Now, to twist your noodle, is it God or man that makes grace efficacious??!! (we Catholics have not defined the answer to that)
Natural man will never "take advantage" of God's salvation. Only the spiritual man who has been regenerated by His will and renewed by the Holy Spirit can "take advantage" of God's blessing of salvation.
Yes, I suppose. But no one here knows who will be the "spiritual man" until we see God's General Judgment and all is revealed.
Regards
The term "Servant" doesn't have to denote a "Christian" anymore than the parable of the "unrighteous" judge refers to God as being unrighteous. Parables are simply stories to illustrate points.
And if the talent does not represent some gift or some grace given to the servant, then what is it that was given to him? Something was given and something was taken away when it was not used. What was that?
Everything we have, whether we are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness our gifts and abilities comes from God. If you would like a Biblical example of God taking away something for abusing it I would call your attention to the book of Daniel.
"Yet you, his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, even though you knew all this, but you have exalted yourself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines have been drinking wine from them; and you have praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which do not see, hear or understand. But the God in whose hand are your life-breath and all your ways, you have not glorified. Then the hand was sent from Him and this inscription was written out."
Now this is the inscription that was written out: 'MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.' This is the interpretation of the message: 'MENE'--God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it. 'TEKEL'--you have been weighed on the scales and found deficient. 'PERES'--your kingdom has been divided and given over to the Medes and Persians."
Then Belshazzar gave orders, and they clothed Daniel with purple and put a necklace of gold around his neck, and issued a proclamation concerning him that he now had authority as the third ruler in the kingdom. That same night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was slain.
Of course, you are correct. When I speak of speculation, I am talking about the interaction between our cooperation with God and His graces. You'd think I was becoming Orthodox by saying that we cannot know who God is, but what God is NOT! We can know some things about God, but I know you will agree that on our interaction, we just can merely speculate. That's what I meant! Funny how a Catholic is talking like an Orthodox! Maybe there is hope!
But most importantly, we may not ask for forgiveness and mercy unless we have forgiven those who trespassed against us, unless we have shown mercy.
Exactly. Isn't it Matthew's version of the Lord's Prayer where Christ expounds on this more? Seems that God's forgiveness is conditional on the fact that WE forgive others. Interesting thought for meditation.
Brother in Christ
We both know it is not about the 'smarts'!
Regards
Since you have eSword I would suggest you read John Gill's commentary. This is what John MacArthur has to state about this section. Perhaps this will be a little clearer.
…
Even if the slave’s accusation against his owner had been valid, it would not have excused his indolence. If anything, it would have made it more foolhardy. “If you thought I demand a return even on that which does not belong to me,” the master countered, in effect, “did you think I would not require a return on that which does belong to me?” The slave was verbally hanged with his own rope.
The truth of the matter was that the slave had no real concern for his master one way or the other, and his excuse seems to have been more spur of the moment than planned. He did not expect the master’s return and did not expect to be held accountable, and when he was caught by surprise he simply threw out an outrageous charge that made no sense.
The distinguishing mark of the first two servants was that they used their opportunity to serve the Lord before His return, which they eagerly awaited, and thereby proved the genuineness of their salvation. They were willing to invest everything they had in the service of their Master. The third servant, on the other hand, put aside what God had given him and went about his own selfish business. He called himself a servant of God but demonstrated conclusively he was not.
The master was angry with the third slave not simply because he lost a profit but because the slave wasted his opportunity. Jesus’ point was that having little to work with is no excuse for not using it at all.
John MacArthur, Commentary on Matthew
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