Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Hallelujah, you are now a Calvinist!
Ping the GRPL! Ring the Church bells.
Kinda like your view of grace, huh? A loan, not a gift?
Assuming there was such a creature...not even close.
You mean, that He takes it away? No, God is love and love can only give blessings, never expecting anything in return. Due to our Fall, we are mortal, so life is a loan. Like all loans, we are free to spend it as we see fit, but how we spend it may be what we end up with in the end.
One can spend it on himself and waste it, or one may do a lot of good for himself and others with it, serving God, and letting God's light shine in him so thers would know Him.
I just think the Bible is replete with clear descriptions of those who are saved and God's promises about salvation. I take them all as a whole and then see if that describes me. Take the most famous verse:
John 3:16 : "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
I do not know how to interpret around what this verse says. I have to have a view of my own belief. You are right in that if I am kidding myself then I am toast. But with my eternal destination on the line, I am comfortable that my confidence in my salvation was placed in my heart by God. My confidence does not come from me.
See where this is going? Here is something for you... When if someone is misinterpreting Scripture when it comes to salvation? I haven't mentioned this before, but it is a good a time as any. WHEN IF Jean Calvin is wrong? This throws a monkey wrench into the whole process, doesn't it? We are placing our trust in a particular interpretation of the Bible. Who can say who is right when two different pastors on opposite corners of a street say two things diametrically opposed?
LOL! "Jean". Because it was you I looked it up before saying anything. You saved me an embarrassment. :)
On the misinterpretation of scripture, I think that there is a big difference between the key principles and other issues that are less important to be considered a true Christian. When I said that I think Catholicism is a true faith I meant that I think that we agree enough on the most essential and defining elements of Christianity that we both really are true Christians. (I'd bet anything that You, as opposed to, say, a Muslim, would agree with all the elements of my sinner's prayer.) You have also said that you believe that people like me are also in heaven. On the other stuff, good Christians can disagree. Isn't such the way with eschatology? If there are two pastors on street corners arguing on the key elements of faith, then I would say there is a problem. However, in my experience I really have not seen this in the evangelical Christian community.
Now if "in truth" Calvin turns out to be wrong on most of his teachings, I would still feel "covered" in terms of salvation, which is all that ultimately matters to me. In fact, I fully expect that I will be found to be wrong on some of my beliefs when (if :) I get to heaven. I don't claim to have all the answers because I assert no authority in myself.
Take your example of the Talents and add to it the story of the three men who went to work for the same man, started at different times of the day, but were yet paid the same. (I'm sorry I can't remember where it is in the Bible.) When I first read those stories I was really surprised at the answers. After long meditation and some study, I have reckoned with God on His teaching. I presume there are other stories in the Bible which I have not yet reckoned correctly. I figure this is what sanctification is for.
The center of authority is the Bible? I have a few problems with that idea. First, how can a book be the center of authority? Every book is subject to interpretation. Look at us now! And secondly, God didn't establish an authoritative book, but an authoritative group of men who would lead His community of believers. THEY would preach and teach. They didn't pass out Bibles and say "here, read this - this will be your source of authority".
Well, I guess I would say that Jesus gives scripture authority because he taught from it and quoted from it so often. While being tempted by satan, Jesus only quoted scripture and said nothing else. Even while hanging on the cross, when He said "My God, why hast thou forsaken me", He was quoting scripture.
Yes, every book is subject to interpretation and that is why I believe that the Bible should interpret itself. The whole point is that scripture is God's revelation to us. There is prayer and meditation, but scripture is where we get most of our information and teachings about God. When most of us here (on both sides) want to prove something, more often that not we use scripture as the authority. I agree that Jesus sent out men to preach, but it must be that they also used scripture to support their own words, just as Jesus did.
Oh my goodness, I didn't realize the time. I have to play in church in a few hours! I bid you a good night and God bless.
Wow. That's a new one on me.
I guess some lucky devil could slip in the service entrance while God is busy welcoming the redeemed at the front gates.
He's been warned to beef up security, but you know how He is when He's got too much on His mind. All good intentions and no follow-through.
Rather than using the word "elect," perhaps the inspired writers of Scripture should have tagged them merely as "nominees."
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day." -- Romans 11:5-8"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
If men can alter the list of salvation, then men make the final decision regarding salvation.
Nowhere in Scripture is that offered. On the contrary, it is expressly denied.
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not to mention the fact that if the list is altered, God has already factored that alteration into the scheme of things from before the foundation of the world. Nothing precedes or supercedes God's determining will.
That's the definition of God. He gets all the good stuff.
I would agree. It is my personal belief there is only one right way to think of God. The other ways of thinking are heretical to varying degrees. How do you discern whether you have the right way of thinking or a heretical thought process apart from discussions such as these? Quite frankly I would rather have someone say, "Oh foolish Harley, who has bewitched you." than to not really discuss something of substance.
People can tell me whatever they wish and I truly take it to heart examining it against the things that I know. In the end we are all accountable to God for ONLY our beliefs and these beliefs include what we think about Him. Consider this exchange:
If God being wrathful against people who do not think rightfully about Him seems unfair one should remember that God commands us to pray for wisdom, understanding and knowledge which He promise to provide in abundance. It is up to us to seek the right understanding of God out. God will guide us to all truth. We have no excuse.
But one more thing. Those who have the right thought process should be praying for those who are in error. May God be merciful to us all.
No, it does not follow.
28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. 30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.(Romans 8)
31 So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free.
(Galatians 4)
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2)
11 He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. 12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
(Apocalypse 22)
It would seem so to you, yes. The cardinal error is that of Luther:
Calvin merely took that error to its diabolical, logical, end.
I absolutely agree. Faith not challenged is not faith at all.
1) That only a subset of the Christian written tradition is determinative in Christian life;
It is ONLY God grace that transforms man. It is ONLY God birthing us into a new spirit that saves us. We are born again because of God's grace-not because of anything we've done including cooperating. God doesn't ask us if we want to be born. God doesn't ask us if we want to be born again.
"For [the kingdom of heaven is] like a man going on a journey, [who] called his own slaves and entrusted to them his possessions. And to one he gave five talents, but to another two, but to another one, to each according to his ability..."(Matthew 25:14-15)
Are you familiar with this parable? What happens to the slave (us) given ONE talent, BUT DOESN'T USE IT? What is that man's destiny as a result? Having the gift doesn't mean the man will USE the gift... Man has free will.
Regards
Yes. I don't think we will ever be able to truly figure out the interaction between God and our cooperation - how one effects the other. After a certain point, we can only speculate. We do know that prayer is effective, and we do know that God has predestined the saved, so go figure...!
Regards
Christ died for the sin of ALL men, not just the elect. Unfortunately, some men choose not to take advantage of Christ's redemptive work.
Regards
Of all your arguments for free will, this one appears to be the best.
For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:29-30 KJV)
That certainly is something to think about. Knowing our Calvinist friends, I'm certain that they will provide their insights into this. But I must admit that you make a good point.
<><
Marlowe
1) The subset of Christian written tradition is Luther's reduced Old Testament canon. Moreover, even when formally accepting the New Testament canon, Luther ridiculed the Letter of James and argued against retaining some others, I forget which. This engendered selective reading of even the New Testament. The protestants rarely if ever rely on James for their instruction, ignore or spin away Christ's teaching on charity, offer fantastic interpretations of the parables, or the clear teaching on judgement based on works in the Apocalypse. 90% of Protestant argumentation from scripture revolves around isolated verses from Paul taken out of their historical, and often literal context.
The only Church Father studied with any consistency is St. Augustine, and he is taken in isolation from the other patristic literature, and his own clarifications regarding the free will are ignored. This is not the patristic approach. Contrary to Luther, the Church teaches that individual fathers erred here and there, and this is why they are not in the canon. Yet, the consensus of the Church Fathers is the sacred written tradition.
2) Sola scriptura is Luther's doctrine, at it means exatly what I say: that man is capable of understanding Luther's reduced canon outside of the entire Tradition, written and unwritten, that lives in the Church. While he was correct in criticizing indulgencies, they were not a part of the Sacred Tradition. Sola scriptura and the sale of indulgences does not justify sola scriptura.
3) Let me correct my formulation: the third error is that man's faith is a binary condition that once obtained does not alter the final salvation of the soul.
4) The distinction I draw is between grace that substantially and often gradually transforms man onto holiness, and Luther's "grace" that covers up depravity without actually removing it. The latter is an error. The former is consistent with the Tradition, written and unwritten.
The man said that he has caste out demons, prophesied and did many "wonderful works" is it your position that freeing one from demons is not good works? If you consider works NECESSARY for salvation then is there not an expectation of "payment" ( salvation) attached to them? Even in the sacramental system ( that as a protestant consider works) does not one expect that there are "graces" connected to correct participation? Is not those expectations God owing one for a correct choice or work or participation?
“Every one therefore that hears these my words, and does them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that hears these my words, and does them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof”. (Mat 7:24-27)
Note, Jesus, as He does throughout the Sermon, emphasizes our DOING. He is NOT condemning actions! Perish the thought!
Having your house fall down and wash away is not a judgment? Was the great flood a judgment?
The question asked by Jesus, “did we not drive out demons in your name” is best explained by 1 Cor 13:2: “if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains (or cast out demons!), and have not love, I am nothing.” Christ is disdainful towards works without love. Action with love, however, is what HE COMMANDS! “Everyone who listens to my words (Mat 5 through Mat 7) AND ACTS UPON THEM will be like a wise man
" Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
I think we might agree that an unsaved man can not bring forth good fruit as he is not attached to the vine, so all his fruit would be bad to the Lord. correct?
Now on the wise man ... Is wisdom a gift of God or is it like love in your opinion , self generated?
Do we agree that there is a wisdom of the carnal man and a wisdom that is from God?
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
So the man that builds his house on a rock, does not do that out of his own wisdom, but out of the wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirits guidance.
Clearly, Christ desires deeds of love. So does Paul. So does the rest of the NT writers. Christ left us ONE commandment: to love others as He had loved us. God doesn’t “know” the religious hypocrites who do works without love!
To whom was he speaking when he told us to love one and other? He was speaking to the converted, the saved , believers . That is because within them dwell the Love of God and the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Read this, it was a command TO THE DISCIPLES not a command to unsaved men . The command was that they LOVE EACH OTHER as an example of his love . The unsaved can not fulfill this command of Christ, only believers can .
Can you fulfill that command? Can you love ANYONE as He has loved ?
When reading scripture context means things, look at the audience to whom he was speaking.
Can an unsaved man have the love of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him? Did the Holy Spirit indwell hitler? Jeffery Dalemler? Jeffrey loved the men he killed and ate. He loved them so much that he wanted them to be a real part of him.
See we are back to the issue of the love of God indwelling the believer versus the love of men that comes from a carnal heart. God sees no benefit to the "good works"coming from a carnal heart.. Scripture indicates that the only love that is pleasing to God is His love ( and his work).
We can’t “inspect” the harvest until it has arrived, can we? Thus, we are not fruit “speculators” presuming we know how the harvest will be in five years, but “inspectors” of what is present and visible. We can only possibly inspect what we see growing – not what we THINK will be growing in five years.
I agree that our "judgment" of the fruit is temporal and not eternal. There are many evil persons that come to Christ in faith on their death beds. But that does not mean that we are not to make judgments in the here and now. Seeing a man that is a pimp, that denies God should cause us to present the gospel to him. If we do not judge that the man would be lost should he die that night, we fail to follow the great commandment. Failure to see the man you are about to get into a business contract with is a thief and a liar and a non believer cause us to deny the words of Christ that we not be unequally yoked.
But WE don’t know who the unsaved are. Only God has access to the Book of Life. Thus, it is not Christian to judge who is saved and who is not saved. That is up to God, not us.
The final judgment of men, is indeed Gods to render. But while we walk this earth he has told us to judge who we are friends with, who we do business with, who we marry and to seek the unsaved to present them with the gospel.
May I ask why you believe the gift of discernment is listed in the gifts of the indwelling Holy Spirit if we are to hold all men as "the same"?
In the end, when we are judged based on our faith working through love, those who were evil and do not desire God’s eternal presence will be judged accordingly.
Who's love? Your love? When you say that we will be 'judged" on our faith working through love" are you talking about judgment to salvation or damnation or judgment for rewards ?
That’s it? I find verses that contradict that idea or interpretation of those verses in that manner.
So then do you believe Paul was wrong?
We see that as a Baptismal formula, thus, the words are spoken by a person who is being baptized (“lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses” 1 Tim 6:12).
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
This verse does not address salvation by baptism
We are saved (healed) by Baptism.
Scripture on that please? The only scripture that even comes close to teaching salvation in baptism is Peters comment in acts, where as throughout the NT salvation by faith is taught .
But our salvation is not “done” with that! Paul himself stated “For the kingdom of God is not in speech, but in power.” (1 Cor 4:20).
And that says what about needing to do works to be saved? Paul later says what he meant by that
1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
We both know what James says in chapter 2 about faith without works (good deeds)…
James teaches that if there are no works there is no saving faith. He is addressing those that may have a profession of faith, yet do not have saving faith in Christ. He does not say that if there is works they give you faith, rather that the works of God come out of your faith in Christ. This book was written to the saved,he was teaching them not how to be saved, but how the world will know that they are Christians.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
The works show our faith to the unsaved world and each other, they do not give us faith or save us. (back to fruit inspection :)
As I have pointed out works that are pleasing to God are the works He ordains and does through us. It is HE that makes our works worthy not us.
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Abraham was justified before men when he placed his sonly son on the altar, they were able to see his faith, and the story is still told how it was he trusted God and had faith in God to keep His promise.
And John says “My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth” (1 John 3:18).
To whom was he speaking? I believe the 'little children" were the saved. This was not a lesson on how to be saved, but how to live out your faith.
Finally, Jesus makes a number of statements along this line, such as what we have been discussing in Matthew 7 and its parallel in Luke 6. He emphasizes DOING, LOVING. Not just talk. Thus, salvation requires more than just a simple Baptismal proclamation of faith. Salvation is an ongoing process, one requiring perseverance.
So then it is your position that if one does not do wrks one loses their salvation? Are the works then for Gods glory or your eternal salvation? Are they serving God or a means to an end?
There are numerous others, but I think you get the picture… The ELECT will persevere, not the “saints”. We don’t know who the elect of God are. Whether the saints on earth persevere or not is not guaranteed by Scripture!
Indeed the elect will persevere, not in their own strength or power or works, but by the grace of God .
Interesting article on how one knows if they are elect
Do you believe that you have offended the all-holy Creator (Rom. 3:10–18; Ps. 51:1–4)?
Do you believe that your sins cry out to heaven itself for justice, and that you deserve to perish under the wrath of the God you have offended by your sins (Isa. 59:2–3; Ezek. 18:4)?
Do you believe that you are, in fact, dead in your sins and unable to make yourself alive (Eph. 2:1–3; Rom. 8:5–8)?
Do you believe that nothing you could ever do—no good deeds, no mighty acts of faith, no church attendance, no niceness of character—will ever be sufficient to appease the wrath of your holy Creator against your sins (Mic. 6:6–7; Isa. 59:12–14)?
Do you believe that God, the God you have offended by your sins, has himself provided the way of escape through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5–7; Col. 2:13)?
Have you been united to Christ by faith, a faith you did not earn, but received as a gift from God? Do you believe that, having been savingly joined by faith to the Son of God, your sins are finally and fully paid for, and that you are forgiven and declared righteous, as though you had never sinned (Gal. 2:16, 20; Rom. 8:1–4)?
Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity—that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21–28; 5:1–11)?
election
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
That is the indwelling Holy Spirit . He is loving through us. If you do not have faith in Christ as your Saviour then you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no divine love there,only carnal love .
Indeed we have much agreement. So much so that i must ask you, is one saved by faith or faith and works? If by faith and works, mustn't the faith proceed the works? If our love and works flow out of the indwelling Holy Spirit, must that not mean that the faith has saved us and made us a worthy home for the Holy Spirit in which to dwell. (I assume we agree that the holy Spirit does not live in unregenerate non believers ( saved men)
I mean,
Sola scriptura and the sale of indulgences have nothing in common logically
or if you wish,
the error of the sale of indulgences does not justify the much graver error of sola scriptura
I always like challenges. Please note all the scriptures.
If you and jokus would have looked at John Gill's commentary in eSword you would have seen that God gives special grace to unbelievers much like He endows and entrusted to Judas power to heal the sick and preach the word. It doesn't mean that Judas believed in Christ. In the above illustration this man didn't know what his Master was like at all just as Judas didn't know the Christ.
It is a fallacy to think God only uses Christians to bring us to Him. He'll use anyone He darn well pleases. But in the parables of the talents it is obvious the one who went and buried his talent had no concept of his master.
There will be some in those days who will say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?" but He will say, "Depart from me for I never knew you."
BTW-This kind of goes against the Catholic understanding of purgatory and hell. Some Catholics don't believe anyone winds up in hell which is not what the above scriptures (e.g. Lord, Lord...) would indicate. Did the person who buried his talent go to purgatory?
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