Like our Savior, Jesus Christ, we love and cherish Mary as our Mother. Mary always points to her Son.
Theotokos
God bearer
A long but worthy read. This is for discussion purposes, so please take your time reading through the entire article.
Like our Savior, Jesus Christ, we love and cherish Mary as our Mother. Mary always points to her Son.
A long but worthy read. This is for discussion purposes, so please take your time reading through the entire article.
As occasionally happens in this forum, the misunderstandings about our Blessed Mother, surface on various threads. This post is intended to clarify some of these differences. Feel free to join in the discussion.
I don't think that Protestants "attack" Mary. I think we hold her in high regard. We just don't believe that she is divine in nature, and therefore don't pray to her or sing her praises. We only pray to and praise God.
Perhaps the woman in Revelations 12 is Israel?
altogether now, let us pray. "Hail Mary full of grace, help me find a parking place. :-)
Oh please ... we are NOT wot "venerate" or worship Mary. She was just another sinner who served as a vessel for Christ. What you believe about Mary is not compatible with what the Bible states.
NO one is sinless, NO ONE - that is why ALL need Christ, even Mary.
You will not convert a Christian, to worshipping or praying TO Mary.
This is profound: I've never heard this argued before and from what I know about ancient biology, it is 100% correct.
Then maybe you should take her advice, stop giving her your attention, and keep the discussion/attention on her Son.
If Miriam was born without the stain of Original Sin, she did not need a Messiah.
b'shem Y'shua
This whole discussion is why I became an Orthodox Christian. The whole Catholic vs. Protestant "discussion" is so divisive.
1. Pray for me. (is that me "worshipping you for asking you to pray for me?)
2. Quoting scripture to "prove" theology. The Bible is a product of the church, not vice versa. The theology was around centuries before people started quoting Bible verses.
3. Mary is the ultimate example of obedience to God. She gave birth to God!!! To completely throw her out of the picture is an insult, while saying she was born without sin is deification. Our respect for her is a Christological statement. (BTW, the Orthodox do not accept the Roman teaching of Original Sin...that's another friendly discussion)
I just had to weigh in on this, because I want people to know there is another historic, ancient church that has not ever changed its teachings, nor will it ever.
The second we start "knowing" other people's salvation or God's plan for them, that is when our OWN salvation is in jeopardy...
God Bless us and pray for me.
That's inteesting that you say Catholics don't worship Mary. As a Protestant at a Catholic school, Father Clarence told me that I was damned to Hell because I didn't pray to Mary and that I was not saved if I refused to pray to the Saints because God won't listen unless the Saints intercede.
All I'm saying is that what you psted is not what all Catholics believe.
That's inteesting that you say Catholics don't worship Mary. As a Protestant at a Catholic school, Father Clarence told me that I was damned to Hell because I didn't pray to Mary and that I was not saved if I refused to pray to the Saints because God won't listen unless the Saints intercede.
All I'm saying is that what you psted is not what all Catholics believe.
The only reference in the Holy Word of G-d
to a "Queen of Heaven " is Revelation 18:7.
b'shem Y'shua
The Protoevangelium (Gen. 3:15)
I believe it is the errors here that lead to the error of Immaculate Conception. You state quite plainly (and rightly) that normally the "seed" is a reference to the male offspring and not the female. However, I believe this is more than just a reference of convenience to biology. The Scriptures also use this term covenantally. The stain of Original Sin is not a product of biology, but a product of covenant headship. There is no dominant "sin gene" if you will that can be passed from either mother or father.
The Fathers on Mary as Second Eve
Honestly, providing three short quotes from early church fathers is not going to carry much weight with your average Protestant, especially when none of them explicitly declare Mary the "Second Eve." Additionally, there is the fact that Eve is scarcely referred to at all outside of Genesis, and likewise Mary is scarcely referred to at all outside of the Gospels.
The Immaculate Conception
As I said before, I believe this stems from a misunderstanding of Original Sin, how it is transmitted, and what its implications are. At it is this point in the reasoning where I believe the comparisons with Eve and Mary reach an unhealthy level, because it is here where they begin to rely more heavily upon the relationship of Adam and Eve.
I also believe the dismissal of the Protestant understanding of Romans 3 is flawed. While the original context of the verses Paul quoted is important, more important is the context in which PAUL uses them. There were prophesies concerning Christ which, in their original OT context, referred to events of that present time and which were fulfilled in a limited fashion at another point in OT history. And yet the NT authors point to them as also referring to Christ, often because the things they pointed to in their smaller context were types. The context in which Paul quotes these verses establish the universal condemnation of all men under the Law.
I'm sorry I don't have more time to comment. I understand most of where the Catholic Marian doctrine comes from. I simply don't agree with it or the reasoning behind it. I do appreciate your efforts for the explanation in the interest of honest debate.
Seems there's a whole lot of "assumin" goin on here.
It is also simply put,love God--love His Mother.
BVMOPN bumpus ad summum
I found a good argument for the Immaculate Conception here: How Commonly Held Christian Beliefs Explain and Defend the Catholic Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception
Scenario #1 is that Christ – our Redeemer and Savior – inherited from His mother a pristine human nature which was not fallen. Her nature was "saved" from fallen-ness prior to Christ’s conception. In this scenario it is Mary who is the object of prior salvation. This is the Catholic view.
OR
Scenario #2 is that Mary was fallen at the time of Christ’s conception, but that Christ was prevented from (i.e., "saved" from) inheriting her fallen-ness through the intervention of the Holy Spirit. In this scenario it is Christ who is the object of the immediate saving work of the Spirit. This is the Protestant view even if few Protestants ever think of it in these terms.
In both scenarios we have the necessity of a "saving" intervention by the Holy Spirit.
But, in scenario #2 we can see a great difficulty arising. Why? Because for Jesus to have been "saved" from inheriting Original Sin that means that Our Savior would have needed a savior AND Our Redeemer would have needed a redeemer and THAT is something that Scripture never points to and that, in reality, is an utter impossibility. For Christ Himself is "THE SAVIOR" and He is "THE REDEEMER".
I am not a Catholic...so take that into consideration...
When my older boy was diagnosed with a usually terminal, particularly rare and nasty type of leukemia, our whole family was devastated, and I could find no solace at all...our sons treatment during the early days of his illness was horrendous, and several times he was near death...
I questioned all the religious personnel I could find(at the army hospital where we found ourselves)...I could not understand why my son was stricken so, why was he suffering, where was God for my son in his time of need?...no one could give me any answers that brought me any consolation...
A wonderful Catholic priest, an army priest, came to my aid...he saw me as an extremely sad, extremely distraught mom, who was watching her son slip away from her...he told me to remember Mary, who like myself, was a mom, a mom who was losing her son in death...he reminded me that Mary suffered terribly, as I was suffering terribly...that God took pity on Mary in her sorrow, as He took pity on me in my sorrow...but God allowed Jesus to die, as perhaps He was allowing my son to die...that Mary and I shared a common tragedy...we both lost our sons, earlier in their lives than we would have wished...no mom, wants to bury her child...
From that day on, I have felt a link with Mary, that I did not feel before...oh, I know, her son was more important than mine, the most important man in the world, but Mary was human, as I am human, and we both felt the very same hurt, at seeing our sons die...
So for me, Mary is so very important, in a personal way...I know its a subjective way, not the 'Catholic' way, but its my way, for Her, and Her example, I am thankful...