So you have questions about Scientology...

Null and void | 11/14/05 | null and void

[null and void]

As a former member of that, ummmm, organization, I have a standing open offer to answer any FReeper's qusetions about Scientology, either in open forum, or via FReepmail.

I will do my best to answer as promptly, concisely and accurately as possible, but as I left some time ago, I'm not always privy to the latest wrinkles.

Still, from what I can gather from my few remaining contacts not that much has really changed!

[null and void]

I've learned to ignore some things under the theory that some people need hard lessons, and it's not my job to save them from themselves...

[Osage Orange]

He was being given medical doses of coumodin, a product which is also sold under the brand name Warfarin™. It is a rat poison, that causes death by hemorrhage. Any one of his care givers could have "adjusted" his dose.

COUMADIN (Warfarin Sodium Tablets, USP) is used to help prevent and treat blood clots:

Can be used for Pulmonary Embolism, or DVT's ( Deep Vein Thrombus )

Can be used in A-Fib "atrial fibrillation" ( a fairly common cardiac arrhythmia )

Can be used and is associated with heart-valve replacement

If you have had a heart attack, COUMADIN may be used to:

Lower the risk of death

Lower the risk of another heart attack

Lower the risk of stroke ( in the event the stroke was caused by blockage..and NOT hemorrhage..)

Lower the risk of blood clots moving to other parts of the body

Just wanted to clear that up......... FRegards,

[null and void]

Good idea.

[TexConfederate1861]

How could any man be married to Nicole Kidman and be GAY?
(unless one was dead or blind) :)

[Osage Orange]

I note that there was no testing for coumodin...

There is testing that can be done...

Coagulation testing, called PT/INR can tell how "thin" the blood is...

Don't think if it can be done postmortem though.......

[Osage Orange]

Geesh....at first glance I thought that was Cruise..and Tom Daschle

[Osage Orange]

I've learned to ignore some things under the theory that some people need hard lessons, and it's not my job to save them from themselves...

Yes....exactly. Gotta say though...it's kept me out of trouble...more often than not.

[Maximus_Ridiculousness]

It looks nothing like a Satanic cross...unless you look at it from upside down

[null and void]

Dunno.

[null and void]

It depends on how you look at it...

(the I isn't me!)

[Paradox]

Did you ever know a Scientologist by the name of Robert Marcus. About 10-15 years ago, he was something of a cyber stalker on the internet. Raised hell in a bunch of newsgroups. He and I got into a public debate, where he eventually began to subtly threaten me and my family. I publicly demonstrated to him that I was in more of a position to know who and where he was, whereupon he ceased dealing with me completely. Always wondered what was up with that guy, and what happened to him..

[null and void]

No. Sorry. I'm glad he's gone away, though.

I officially left the church in 1985, although I had been inactive for quite some time before that.

[Paradox]

Thanks anyways, a quick search on Google shows that he was rather infamous for such things. He soured me on Scientology (I had read and enjoyed Dianetics as a teenager, but was simply too lazy to follow up). Of course its probably not a good idea to generalize an entire group based on one a$$hole, I think he is probably just an extreme version of what they actually do, the intimidations, etc..

For the record, he was railing against homosexuals and their Agenda. Since then, I have actually come to agree in some small measure with him, but I'd still debate that guy about the same topic anyday.

I'm glad you got out of there when you did, and I hope you are finding relief for what may still ail you inside..

[null and void]

Thank you. I actually got a lot out of it. I'm glad I did it, and very glad I left!

[cgk]

*ping*

[RipSawyer]

BTW, I believe that the notion of past traumas affecting present life was invented by Freud, not Hubbard. Hubbard basically borrowed from Freud.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is a fairly old post I am replying to. I found it while surfing around FR at night. Maybe I am a strange bird but to me the fact that past traumas affect present life is as obvious as the sun rising in the morning. I don't understand how anyone could argue otherwise. I think Mark Twain was quoted as saying,"once a cat sits on a hot stove lid he will never sit on a hot one again, but neither will he ever sit on a cold one again".

[Quilla]

My sister, a longtime member of Scientology is currently visiting me. The last time I saw her I'm afraid I attacked Scientology (Xenu, hydrogen bombs, volcanoes, thetans, huge expense, cult, etc.). I believe the sole intent of her current visit is to convince me that Scientology was established to help people (i.e. narcanon, purification rundowns in New York after 9-11) and that I am obviously misinformed.

She's not trying to convert me, but is obviously troubled by my comments - almost getting out of control when I say I don't get it. She asked me the "picture a cat" question and I looked at her like she was nuts. She admitted she believes she's lived before (numerous times), but wouldn't share the era when asked. It's just such vague bull hockey and nothing she says is going to convince me otherwise. I suspect she's spent in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and is so hooked, nothing is going to "save" her. Can you share anything that I could say to her to convince her this whole thing is a hoax? She claims to have never heard the story about LRH saying he'd make more money starting a religion than writing science fiction. All in all, she's incredibly defensive, but I'm hoping there is some trigger to get her to see the light.

Thanks.

[null and void]

Hmmmmmm.

First off, she's coming to defend scientology. She's expecting a fight.

She's 'armed for bear', and ready to do anything but listen. You aren't going to win a fight. She's too indoctrinated, too stubborn, and too invested in scientology to up and say 'Ya know what? This is nuts!'

I don't know what's happened thus far, but if it's not too late, I would try a little jujitsu. Use her own energy against her, like popping a door open just as someone is throwing their full weight against it to batter it down.

She's expecting resistance and hostility. Give her love and acceptance.

When scientology was going bad for me (and so many others) the most terrifying part was that we had pretty much burned our bridges (no pun intended) back to the real world. There was no place to go to! Leaving a life that had a whole bunch of us all working towards a common worthy goal, with a common philosophy, a common way of doing things, and looking at the world was hard to contemplate.

Having nothing and no one to fall back on in the outside, well...

When she leave she needs to KNOW that you are her sister, you love her dearly, and you will be there for her no matter what.

She needs to believe that although you may not agree with scientology, or 'get it' yourself, that you respect her decision to go into and stay in scientology.

Acknowledge any good it has done in her life, and let her know that should it ever reach a point where it stops benefiting her, or she simply needs to get away from it to think about it for a bit (if the phrasing isn't too awkward for you say 'if you need to examine it from an exterior viewpoint') , that you love her and she is welcome there.

OK, that sets the table. I can only offer you a few things to put on the menu.

The writings of L. Ron Hubbard are like the Bible, in that one can find something in them to support darn near anything. You need to give her a little - just a little - cognitive dissonance. That is, gently hand her a few internal inconsistencies to mull over in her own time.

This is tricky.

From a church politics side:

The stated goals of the church are totally unreachable under the current system. The big one you'll hear is to 'Clear the Planet' at $1000+ per hour of auditing, this simply isn't going to happen, as that is a year's income for most of the world! Well, the usual answers are (were) that as more and more people are cleared, there will be less insanity (group bank) to go around and it will take less auditing time, and at that time the church will also be reducing the rates to draw in more and more of the world's poor. If you get this one, ask if the church has ever reduced rates? (no)

The other was that Hubbard was developing group processes to clear stadiums full of people at a time. I doubt you'll hear this one. Where is the old guy these days?

In either case, why the rush? Why not simply wait until it becomes more universally available and cheaper? Usual answer is that it's a race between scientology and the forces that would destroy the earth. Hard to argue that point, you're on your own here!

On the tech side two main things come to mind:

1) One of the very basic tenets of both dianetics and scientology is that you never ever ever tell the PC (Pre-Clear - client) what incidents to run in an auditing session. You have particular processes and commands, but the PC locates their own incidents that those commands point to. Your incidents of 'a pain in the zorch' (a made up Hubbardism) may be totally different from my pain in the zorch. Yet on the upper levels the Pre OT (Well, you can't very well call 'em a Pre-Clear after they're gone clear...) is given the EXACT specific incidents to run, as if everyone had the exact same experiences. Hint, no two people experience anything exactly the same...

2) The upper levels don't so much deal with Xenu, etc. as they do with waking up and kicking out body thetans (BT's). IMHO, this is the most dangerous part of scientology, as the rudely awakened and violently insane body thetans are dumped on the environment... Discussing upper levels is very tricky. She probably will pretty much refuse to talk about this part of the upper levels.

You can probably get her to tell you that as one goes up the bridge, one's abilities increase, at this point you could ask her if she's gotten more able to create effects in the physical universe, how does she know she's not creating the incidents she's being told to run in her own personal universe? Isn't she capable of doing that? Isn't that even easier than creating a parking place, or changing a red traffic light?

If you can get her to talk about BT's ask her if they are fully cleared? Where do they go? Now that they are wide awake, what do they do to other people the attach to? Ask her when BT's were first discovered, then quietly observe that the world seems to have been getting crazier since then...

Underlying philosophy bonus point:

If she offers to show the the emotional tone scale (One of the really useful nuggets in scientology) a measure of a person's well being and something of a map in how to relate to them from a higher position, and thereby bring them 'up tone' go for it!

Keep a copy for your own reference if you can.

Study it, talk it over with her. Then ask where is 'Love' on this chart? I see 'Hate', but I don't see love?...

Before she leaves re-emphasize that you love her and will ALWAYS be there for her no matter what.

Hope this helps.

[kenth]

I *think* Miscaviage is even shorter than Tom.


What is he, three foot two? Geez that's a little guy.

[null and void]

The Chinese have a saying:

When a small man casts a big shadow, it means the sun is about to set.