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Drawing the Line for Mormons: A Closer Look at the LDS Church
Catholic Exchange ^ | October 17, 2005 | Mary Kochan

Posted on 10/17/2005 6:28:59 AM PDT by NYer

Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church. There is even a move among Mormons to shorten the name of their church to simply "The Church of Jesus Christ."


In This Article...
America's Lost Tribe
Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?
When Talking to a Mormon

America's Lost Tribe

Their founder, Joseph Smith, claimed to have been told in a vision regarding the Christian churches that God "forbade me to join with any of them" and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight." It is hence Mormons (not Christians) who established, from the beginning of their group, an antagonistic relationship with those Christian groups already in existence. In recent years Mormons have sought to downplay this antagonism, and that testimony of Joseph Smith has received a new whitewashing in the current Newsweek cover story "The Mormon Odyssey" which relates the story like this: "God and Jesus appeared and delivered a startling message: he shouldn't join any of the churches of the world, for they had long ago fallen away from Christ's true Gospel."

In one sense clearly, Mormons are Christian. If you were going to categorize Mormons according to world-religion criteria, you would have to say they are Christians. World religions are the major belief systems found around the world that frame a tradition of enough cultural richness to support a civilization. The major world religions are Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism and Islam. Clearly Mormonism fits into the broad "Christian" category. And so would many other groups whose relationship with the wider Christian world is antagonistic: Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.

It may be that in the not-too-distant future, we will have to categorize Mormonism as a separate world religion. It is the fifth-largest religious group now in the US, having just passed the Lutherans, and the LDS are experiencing rapid expansion in other countries. In many ways its development parallels that of Islam. Both religions were founded by prophets who claimed to have been visited by an angel. They borrow heavily from Judaism and Christianity, yet reject their central tenets. Both rely upon strange revisions of history. The Koran identifies Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses, who lived over fourteen centuries earlier. The Book of Mormon makes numerous claims regarding the peoples of the Americas (including the idea that the American Indians descended from a lost tribe of ancient Israelites) that have been refuted by history, archeology and anthropology. Both Islam and Mormonism claim that where their sacred writings contradict the Bible, the Christian and Jewish scriptures have been corrupted.

It might be argued that Mormons have the right to say that they are "Christians" and no one should deny what they say about themselves. It is possible, however, for us to respect their right to call themselves whatever they wish without feeling compelled to validate that claim ourselves. This is complicated by the fact that to many Catholics, Mormonism seems no more strange than the Baptist faith, or that of any other Protestant denomination. In part this is because Mormons themselves generally use the language and terminology common to (especially Protestant) Christians. In their initial approach to you, they will do all they can to hide or gloss over the distinctive beliefs of their church. Statements of Mormon belief sound so much like statements of the Christian faith that many Catholics and Protestants are quite willing to recognize Mormons as "Christians," not merely in the world-religion sense, but in the sense in which we Catholics recognize Protestant Christians as our "separated brethren." This is a serious error with two major consequences.

First, Christians (including Catholics) are misled into the Mormon church where they are indoctrinated in a religion which rejects the central doctrines of the Christian faith, resulting in them bringing their children up as non-Christians. Second, Christians embrace Mormons as fellow Christians instead of evangelizing them.

In order to protect Christians from this deception and to help Mormons learn the truth, we must understand how Mormon doctrine differs from the historic Christian faith that we share with Protestants. To do this, we will examine first what Mormons say, then how they define the terms they are using and how that differs from the Christian faith. Finally we provide a biblical, Christian response and suggestions for how to discuss these things with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The Central Question: Who is God?

What Mormons will say they believe about God:

  1. We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
  2. We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus's name.
  3. Jesus is our Savior.
Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:
  1. "God the Father" to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, Whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
  2. The Mormon worships God the Father because He is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
  3. The Mormon "God the Father" had a father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
  4. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
  5. The Mormons have a saying: "What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become." This is polytheism.
Christian answer:
  1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made the heavens and the earth; there is no other God; there never has been any other God, nor will there ever be another. (Gn 1:1; Is 43;10; 44:6, 8, 24)
  2. God the Father was never a man.
  3. You will never be God.
  4. True Christianity, like Judaism, is monotheistic. As our creed states "We believe in one God."

Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?

Why the Mormon Jesus is not the Christian Jesus:

  1. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer (Satan). They were both born in heaven by God the Father's union with one of his many spirit wives.
  2. According to Mormon teaching, when it was time for Jesus to come down to earth, God the Father sent down one of his spirit wives from heaven to be born as a woman, Mary. Then he came down and had physical, marital relations with her in order for her to give birth to a human body inhabited by Jesus coming from heaven. This is a denial of the Virgin Birth.
Christian answer:
  1. Since God the Father does not have a physical human body, He did not impregnate Mary by a physical union (2 Chr 6:18; Jn 4:24).
  2. Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary (Mt 1:23; Lk 2:30-35).
  3. God the Father does not have a wife or wives in heaven.
  4. Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God, one in being with the Father (Jn 1:1-18).
  5. He is not the older brother of Lucifer.
  6. He is the older brother, as well as Lord and God, of those born again by water and Spirit, God's adopted children (Jn 3:3-17; Rom 8:14-17, 29).
Why the Mormon doctrine of man is not the Christian doctrine of man:
  1. According to Mormonism, all human beings existed as spirit children of God and his wife in heaven before coming to earth.
  2. They grow to spirit "adulthood" serving God (even fighting in heavenly battles), and are then sent to earth to be babies of human parents.
  3. The earthly life is their opportunity to become gods themselves, like their heavenly Father, by "obeying the laws of the Gospel" just as the god of this planet once did.
Christian answer:
  1. There is no biblical support for the idea that human beings were spirit children of God in heaven before coming to earth.
  2. Jesus was unique in being a human being with a pre-human existence (Jn 1:18; 3:13, 31; 8:23, 58).
  3. Jesus took on human nature at the Incarnation. God became man — not the other way around. His human nature was glorified at His Resurrection.
  4. We will be like God in that we will have the same kind of glorified human nature which Jesus possesses, not in becoming gods and ruling planets ourselves (1 Jn 3:3; Rom 8:22, Phil 3:20-21).
  5. While heaven is the presence of God with unfettered communion, the distinction between God and creatures remains (Rv 5:13, 14).

What is Salvation?

What Mormons will say they believe about salvation:

  1. All are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice, from the consequences of the fall.
  2. Immortality comes as a free gift, by the grace of God alone, without works.
  3. Jesus is our Savior.
Why Mormon salvation is not Christian salvation:
  1. According to Mormonism, everyone and everything — all of creation — has been redeemed and therefore "saved."
  2. This salvation gains, for all human beings, a physical resurrection only — not eternal life. Eternal life is not "salvation"; it is "exaltation."
  3. If you ask a Mormon if he is saved (per Evangelical parlance), he will answer yes.
  4. If you ask him if he believes you are saved, he will answer yes. This confuses Christians who do not understand that being "saved" and gaining "eternal life" are not the same thing in Mormon thinking.
  5. It is further confused by the Mormon distinction between "immortality" (salvation to physical resurrection) and "eternal life" (exaltation to godhood).
  6. The Mormons have a saying: "Salvation without exaltation is damnation."
  7. Therefore, a Mormon can, with a straight face, tell you he believes you are "saved," while he also believes you are damned.
Christian answer:
  1. We define salvation according to what we are saved from. We are saved from sin and from the wages of sin — death.
  2. To be saved from sin is to be justified and sanctified. To be saved from death is to receive eternal life (Rom 6:22, 23).
  3. Being saved, justified, sanctified and given eternal life by the grace of God are all things which are interconnected in the Scriptures. There is no biblical basis for separating them (Rom 5).
  4. Seeking exaltation is contrary to the spirit of Christ. We are rather to humble ourselves, recognize our sinfulness and call upon the Lord for mercy and forgiveness (Js 4:6-10).
Why the Mormon hope is not the Christian hope:
  1. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet. This is "exaltation," and depends upon the Mormon "Plan of Eternal Progression."
  2. The hope of Mormon females depends upon their being married, in a temple ceremony, to a Mormon male who achieves exaltation.
  3. Mormon women married to non-Mormons ("Gentiles") can arrange for a "temple sealing" (marriage by proxy) to a Mormon male after their death. This is to assure that in eternity they are considered to have been married to and produced their children from a Mormon husband so that they and their children can be exalted.
  4. Mormon males expect to produce offspring in heaven with their mate(s), offspring who will subsequently be sent to populate their planet and achieve their own exaltation to godhood and so on and so on…
Christian answer:
  1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made man for Himself and in His image to be in communion with God and enter into the love of the Holy Trinity.
  2. When man fell into sin and marred the image of God in his own being, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate — taking human nature to Himself.
  3. He then did what He could not do in the form of God: He died to save us from sin and death, so that we could come back into communion with God and share the love of the Holy Trinity. Our hope is to be with God, not to be God (Gn 1-3; Phil 2:5-11).

When Talking to a Mormon

Remember that the Mormon is trained to hide the difference between his beliefs and yours and to present himself as a Christian. However, his belief that he is a Christian is sincere, and his efforts to hide the distinctives of the Mormon religion are pursued in his desire to get you to accept Mormon teachings.

Do not allow glib, surface responses to go unchallenged; press the Mormon to define the Christian-sounding words he is using.

Define your own terms also. Draw the contrast for the Mormon. Calmly and clearly insist that what you and he believe about the nature of God, the identity of Jesus, the nature of man, salvation and eternal life are different. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Appeal to his honesty and sense of fairness. You might say, "Look, we are not going to get anywhere unless we are honest with each other. Without making any statement about which one of us is right, can't we just acknowledge that we do not worship the same God?" or "Can't we just acknowledge that we do not have the same hope for the future?" Help the Mormon to consider the logical and philosophical problems with the Plan of Eternal Progression.

If God had a Father and He had a Father and so on — then who was the first God? Mormons say it is an "infinite regression." But since there is no way to cross an infinite distance or pass an infinite amount of time, there would be no way to get to "now" and to "us" from an infinite past. Time has to have had a beginning and it did. It began with the creation "of all things seen and unseen" by God. Mormons say that God is omnipotent (almighty, all-powerful), yet they say there are many Gods. There cannot be more than one omnipotent being, so the Mormon conception of God is shrunken and distorted.

A big selling point of the Mormon hope for the future is the idea that families will be together eternally. But if Mormons become Gods of planets and then their children become Gods of other planets — how do the children and parents get together? Can a God leave his planet unattended while he goes to a celestial family reunion? This Mormon selling point would be diminished if we Christians were more vocal about our hope for the "new heavens and new earth" in which we know one another in the all the relationships of our present lives, only in glory (2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1).

Welcome the participation of Mormons in causes which we share for the common good: strengthening family life, fighting pornography and abortion, fostering the virtue of patriotism. We honor each Mormon as a person who desires what is genuinely good for himself, his family and his society — and when we share the truths of the Christian faith with him.



TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; islam; ldschurch; letsallhatemormons; mormon; zaq
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To: AlaninSA
The Book of Mormon? What exactly happened to those plates that nobody other than Smith saw?

Actually, at least eleven other persons reported having seem the plates. (See "The Testimony of Three Witnesses" and "The Testimony of Eight Witnesses" in the introduction to the Book of Mormon.)

As for the plates themselves, I believe that they are in the possesion of the angel who first delivered them to Joseph Smith.

61 posted on 10/17/2005 1:54:05 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile
As for the plates themselves, I believe that they are in the possesion of the angel who first delivered them to Joseph Smith.

Lol....I can't resist. Was his name Nephi?

62 posted on 10/17/2005 2:06:37 PM PDT by colorcountry (George W. Bush... Saving your ass whether you like it or not!)
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To: Logophile
Where is this documented? The only other persons who claimed to have seen the "plates" (that I know of) saw Smith looking at "something" under a cloth -- and claimed they saw the "plates" with the "eyes of faith."

Sorry, a little too juvenile of a story for me to buy. And what's this "reformed Egyptian" language?

63 posted on 10/17/2005 2:30:21 PM PDT by AlaninSA (It's ONE NATION UNDER GOD...brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: andysandmikesmom
To me, those who try to keep Christ as a role model, would not engage in such behavior...civil discussions, disageements, points of contention, yes...just being plain rude and nasty, no...But thats just me...

Christ was not concerned about appearing "rude" or "nasty". He was concerned about proclaiming the truth. He said things like "You belong to your father, the devil" in John 8:44, referring to the Pharisees. He also told them they would "die in their sins". Being civil in a discussion does not mean witholding such truths. In our PC environment, being civil has come to mean "all paths lead to God", "it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you are a good person", etc. These are doctrines of the antichrist.
64 posted on 10/17/2005 2:32:28 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: colorcountry; Logophile; 2pugs4me

"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)

"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)

Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)

Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)




65 posted on 10/17/2005 2:39:55 PM PDT by colorcountry (George W. Bush... Saving your ass whether you like it or not!)
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To: colorcountry
Lol....I can't resist. Was his name Nephi?

You are (or were) a seventh-generation "Mormon" and yet do not know this? The angel's name was Moroni. (See the "Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith" in the Introduction to the Book of Mormon.)

66 posted on 10/17/2005 3:15:37 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile

Yes, I know...that is one rendition of the Joseph Smith story. I've posted others to you.

One of the blessings (for me) and dilemmas (for you), is that I possess early church publications. When the Church changes its official story, I have the proof. But you too can find it if you choose to look.


67 posted on 10/17/2005 3:26:33 PM PDT by colorcountry (George W. Bush... Saving your ass whether you like it or not!)
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To: AlaninSA

***Where is this documented? The only other persons who claimed to have seen the "plates" (that I know of) saw Smith looking at "something" under a cloth -- and claimed they saw the "plates" with the "eyes of faith."***

I have read this also where the witnesses admitted that all they saw was what appeared to be a book covered with a cloth and they finally admitted that they never saw gold plates at all.

Also, Smith offended the angel and the angel took away the plates leaving Smith a stone which he put in his hat and the words appeared on them.

Be careful lest the moderators come in and start knocking heads as they have unfortunatly done in the past.


68 posted on 10/17/2005 3:28:56 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn, the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: AlaninSA
Where is this documented? The only other persons who claimed to have seen the "plates" (that I know of) saw Smith looking at "something" under a cloth -- and claimed they saw the "plates" with the "eyes of faith."

You can read the statements of the witnesses in the Introduction to the Book of Mormon. Neither group of witnesses mentions a cloth covering:

. . . And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. . . . (The Testimony of the Three Witnesses)
. . . Joseph Smith, the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. . . . (The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses)

Thus, the witnesses saw the plates and some handled them.

Sorry, a little too juvenile of a story for me to buy. . . .

Suit yourself.

69 posted on 10/17/2005 3:36:46 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile

Sorry - as with corrupting Masonic practices to create temple rituals, Smith also attempted to corrupt the KJV Bible in his strange book called "the Book of Mormon."


70 posted on 10/17/2005 3:39:55 PM PDT by AlaninSA (It's ONE NATION UNDER GOD...brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: colorcountry
One of the blessings (for me) and dilemmas (for you), is that I possess early church publications. When the Church changes its official story, I have the proof. But you too can find it if you choose to look.

That is no dilemma for me. (Nor does it seem to be much of a blessing for you.) Indeed, I am not sure why you think it such an important point.

The Moroni/Nephi issue is discussed here. In short, the Manuscript History was in error (stating that it was Nephi instead of Moroni), and the others repeated the error. However, most sources from the same period state that the angel who was in charge of the plates was Moroni, although Nephi also appeared to Joseph.

The important point is that both Nephi and Moroni were real persons, ancient prophets of God, who visted Joseph Smith. We can read about them in the Book of Mormon, which Joseph Smith translated from an ancient record by the gift and power of God.

You need not take my word for this. The Book of Mormon itself promises that anyone who reads it and asks God with real intent will receive confirmation from the Holy Ghost that it is true.

71 posted on 10/17/2005 4:05:49 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile
Oops. The correct link is this one.
72 posted on 10/17/2005 4:09:02 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: AlaninSA
Sorry - as with corrupting Masonic practices to create temple rituals, Smith also attempted to corrupt the KJV Bible in his strange book called "the Book of Mormon."

Perhaps. But I am curious: Do you know any of this yourself, or are you merely repeating what you have heard? (I ask because you did not seem to know much about the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.) That is, do you have first-hand experience with both the Masonic rites and the LDS temple endowment? And have you studied both the Bible and the Book of Mormon?

73 posted on 10/17/2005 4:17:21 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Dominick
Just ordered book two of the WWI trilogy, got some catching up to do with possible history.

The problem with Turtledove is that he apparently cranks out a 900 page book every three weeks. You can NEVER catch up.

74 posted on 10/17/2005 4:23:30 PM PDT by Heyworth
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To: Coleus

I think Joseph Smith developed many of his practices from Freemasonry. I do not remember exactly the root of the sacred undies in Mormonism but think there is a Masonic connection. Anyone know?


75 posted on 10/17/2005 4:31:34 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Logophile
You need not take my word for this. The Book of Mormon itself promises that anyone who reads it and asks God with real intent will receive confirmation from the Holy Ghost that it is true.

You have to admit that this is an extremely subjective means of determining the content of Scripture. Considering how easy it is for humans to delude themselves - knowing about the Fall of Adam and Eve, do you think God is going to rely on the "Spirit" enlightening every individual Mormon? For a book to be considered God's Word, we have to accept that historical witness that they give. Compare the Apostles and Joseph Smith - their respective histories and their personal virtues. Considering we see no evidence of a huge battle that took place in upstate NY, or any Golden plates, or any evidence of an ancient civilization that would prove the Book of Mormon to be true, we can say that the whole thing is pretty much a hoax. There is no historical proff that any of it existed - which casts great doubt on the whole affair. Compare this to the Apostles of Christ.

Regards

76 posted on 10/17/2005 4:42:42 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: NYer

Nice post, thank you NYer. Mormons are indeed peddling themselves as "Christians" and there are many in America who don't doubt it because very few people know about them. FR needs more such informative posts.


77 posted on 10/17/2005 4:57:22 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

When Utah was up for statehood, they were told that as long as they practiced plural marriage they would not be admitted to the Union. Presto, there came a revelation telling the Church that plural marriage was now off the table. Utah became a state.

In later years during the civil rights era, the Church stopped promising Blacks and other non-Caucasians that they would become White in Heaven, and they also began to admit 'coloured' people to the Priesthood which they had not done til the courts began to get involved.

I don't know about you but I found that rather convenient timing. ((I was a Mormon during the latter events).


78 posted on 10/17/2005 5:14:54 PM PDT by KateatRFM
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To: Logophile
One of my hobbies is practicing Catholic apologetics on line. I have the Mormons to thank for this -- as one of my employees is one. He and I have had many discussions on this topic. I've studied many faiths in order to better understand both them and my own.

In addition, I've studied much about the Masons, as there's been a great deal written about Masons versus Catholics and Masons versus Knights (98% of which is untrue).

79 posted on 10/17/2005 5:19:30 PM PDT by AlaninSA (It's ONE NATION UNDER GOD...brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: KateatRFM

Dear KateatRFM, I was never a Mormon and yes, their timing is indeed convenient. If they changed their "standards," what does it say about their faith?

Best regards


80 posted on 10/17/2005 5:22:01 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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