Drawing the Line for Mormons: A Closer Look at the LDS Church

Catholic Exchange ^ | October 17, 2005 | Mary Kochan

[NYer]

Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church. There is even a move among Mormons to shorten the name of their church to simply "The Church of Jesus Christ."

In This Article...
America's Lost Tribe
Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?
When Talking to a Mormon

America's Lost Tribe

Their founder, Joseph Smith, claimed to have been told in a vision regarding the Christian churches that God "forbade me to join with any of them" and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight." It is hence Mormons (not Christians) who established, from the beginning of their group, an antagonistic relationship with those Christian groups already in existence. In recent years Mormons have sought to downplay this antagonism, and that testimony of Joseph Smith has received a new whitewashing in the current Newsweek cover story "The Mormon Odyssey" which relates the story like this: "God and Jesus appeared and delivered a startling message: he shouldn't join any of the churches of the world, for they had long ago fallen away from Christ's true Gospel."

In one sense clearly, Mormons are Christian. If you were going to categorize Mormons according to world-religion criteria, you would have to say they are Christians. World religions are the major belief systems found around the world that frame a tradition of enough cultural richness to support a civilization. The major world religions are Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism and Islam. Clearly Mormonism fits into the broad "Christian" category. And so would many other groups whose relationship with the wider Christian world is antagonistic: Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.

It may be that in the not-too-distant future, we will have to categorize Mormonism as a separate world religion. It is the fifth-largest religious group now in the US, having just passed the Lutherans, and the LDS are experiencing rapid expansion in other countries. In many ways its development parallels that of Islam. Both religions were founded by prophets who claimed to have been visited by an angel. They borrow heavily from Judaism and Christianity, yet reject their central tenets. Both rely upon strange revisions of history. The Koran identifies Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses, who lived over fourteen centuries earlier. The Book of Mormon makes numerous claims regarding the peoples of the Americas (including the idea that the American Indians descended from a lost tribe of ancient Israelites) that have been refuted by history, archeology and anthropology. Both Islam and Mormonism claim that where their sacred writings contradict the Bible, the Christian and Jewish scriptures have been corrupted.

It might be argued that Mormons have the right to say that they are "Christians" and no one should deny what they say about themselves. It is possible, however, for us to respect their right to call themselves whatever they wish without feeling compelled to validate that claim ourselves. This is complicated by the fact that to many Catholics, Mormonism seems no more strange than the Baptist faith, or that of any other Protestant denomination. In part this is because Mormons themselves generally use the language and terminology common to (especially Protestant) Christians. In their initial approach to you, they will do all they can to hide or gloss over the distinctive beliefs of their church. Statements of Mormon belief sound so much like statements of the Christian faith that many Catholics and Protestants are quite willing to recognize Mormons as "Christians," not merely in the world-religion sense, but in the sense in which we Catholics recognize Protestant Christians as our "separated brethren." This is a serious error with two major consequences.

First, Christians (including Catholics) are misled into the Mormon church where they are indoctrinated in a religion which rejects the central doctrines of the Christian faith, resulting in them bringing their children up as non-Christians. Second, Christians embrace Mormons as fellow Christians instead of evangelizing them.

In order to protect Christians from this deception and to help Mormons learn the truth, we must understand how Mormon doctrine differs from the historic Christian faith that we share with Protestants. To do this, we will examine first what Mormons say, then how they define the terms they are using and how that differs from the Christian faith. Finally we provide a biblical, Christian response and suggestions for how to discuss these things with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The Central Question: Who is God?

What Mormons will say they believe about God:

1. We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
   
2. We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus's name.
   
3. Jesus is our Savior.

Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:

1. "God the Father" to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, Whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
   
2. The Mormon worships God the Father because He is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
   
3. The Mormon "God the Father" had a father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
   
4. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
   
5. The Mormons have a saying: "What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become." This is polytheism.

Christian answer:

1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made the heavens and the earth; there is no other God; there never has been any other God, nor will there ever be another. (Gn 1:1; Is 43;10; 44:6, 8, 24)
2. God the Father was never a man.
3. You will never be God.
4. True Christianity, like Judaism, is monotheistic. As our creed states "We believe in one God."

Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?

Why the Mormon Jesus is not the Christian Jesus:

1. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer (Satan). They were both born in heaven by God the Father's union with one of his many spirit wives.
2. According to Mormon teaching, when it was time for Jesus to come down to earth, God the Father sent down one of his spirit wives from heaven to be born as a woman, Mary. Then he came down and had physical, marital relations with her in order for her to give birth to a human body inhabited by Jesus coming from heaven. This is a denial of the Virgin Birth.

Christian answer:

1. Since God the Father does not have a physical human body, He did not impregnate Mary by a physical union (2 Chr 6:18; Jn 4:24).
   
2. Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary (Mt 1:23; Lk 2:30-35).
3. God the Father does not have a wife or wives in heaven.
   
4. Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God, one in being with the Father (Jn 1:1-18).
   
5. He is not the older brother of Lucifer.
6. He is the older brother, as well as Lord and God, of those born again by water and Spirit, God's adopted children (Jn 3:3-17; Rom 8:14-17, 29).

Why the Mormon doctrine of man is not the Christian doctrine of man:

1. According to Mormonism, all human beings existed as spirit children of God and his wife in heaven before coming to earth.
   
2. They grow to spirit "adulthood" serving God (even fighting in heavenly battles), and are then sent to earth to be babies of human parents.
   
3. The earthly life is their opportunity to become gods themselves, like their heavenly Father, by "obeying the laws of the Gospel" just as the god of this planet once did.

Christian answer:

1. There is no biblical support for the idea that human beings were spirit children of God in heaven before coming to earth.
   
2. Jesus was unique in being a human being with a pre-human existence (Jn 1:18; 3:13, 31; 8:23, 58).
   
3. Jesus took on human nature at the Incarnation. God became man — not the other way around. His human nature was glorified at His Resurrection.
   
4. We will be like God in that we will have the same kind of glorified human nature which Jesus possesses, not in becoming gods and ruling planets ourselves (1 Jn 3:3; Rom 8:22, Phil 3:20-21).
   
5. While heaven is the presence of God with unfettered communion, the distinction between God and creatures remains (Rv 5:13, 14).

What is Salvation?

What Mormons will say they believe about salvation:

1. All are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice, from the consequences of the fall.
   
2. Immortality comes as a free gift, by the grace of God alone, without works.
   
3. Jesus is our Savior.

Why Mormon salvation is not Christian salvation:

1. According to Mormonism, everyone and everything — all of creation — has been redeemed and therefore "saved."
   
2. This salvation gains, for all human beings, a physical resurrection only — not eternal life. Eternal life is not "salvation"; it is "exaltation."
   
3. If you ask a Mormon if he is saved (per Evangelical parlance), he will answer yes.
4. If you ask him if he believes you are saved, he will answer yes. This confuses Christians who do not understand that being "saved" and gaining "eternal life" are not the same thing in Mormon thinking.
   
5. It is further confused by the Mormon distinction between "immortality" (salvation to physical resurrection) and "eternal life" (exaltation to godhood).
6. The Mormons have a saying: "Salvation without exaltation is damnation."
7. Therefore, a Mormon can, with a straight face, tell you he believes you are "saved," while he also believes you are damned.

Christian answer:

1. We define salvation according to what we are saved from. We are saved from sin and from the wages of sin — death.
   
2. To be saved from sin is to be justified and sanctified. To be saved from death is to receive eternal life (Rom 6:22, 23).
   
3. Being saved, justified, sanctified and given eternal life by the grace of God are all things which are interconnected in the Scriptures. There is no biblical basis for separating them (Rom 5).
   
4. Seeking exaltation is contrary to the spirit of Christ. We are rather to humble ourselves, recognize our sinfulness and call upon the Lord for mercy and forgiveness (Js 4:6-10).

Why the Mormon hope is not the Christian hope:

1. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet. This is "exaltation," and depends upon the Mormon "Plan of Eternal Progression."
2. The hope of Mormon females depends upon their being married, in a temple ceremony, to a Mormon male who achieves exaltation.
3. Mormon women married to non-Mormons ("Gentiles") can arrange for a "temple sealing" (marriage by proxy) to a Mormon male after their death. This is to assure that in eternity they are considered to have been married to and produced their children from a Mormon husband so that they and their children can be exalted.
   
4. Mormon males expect to produce offspring in heaven with their mate(s), offspring who will subsequently be sent to populate their planet and achieve their own exaltation to godhood and so on and so on…

Christian answer:

1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made man for Himself and in His image to be in communion with God and enter into the love of the Holy Trinity.
   
2. When man fell into sin and marred the image of God in his own being, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate — taking human nature to Himself.
   
3. He then did what He could not do in the form of God: He died to save us from sin and death, so that we could come back into communion with God and share the love of the Holy Trinity. Our hope is to be with God, not to be God (Gn 1-3; Phil 2:5-11).

When Talking to a Mormon

Remember that the Mormon is trained to hide the difference between his beliefs and yours and to present himself as a Christian. However, his belief that he is a Christian is sincere, and his efforts to hide the distinctives of the Mormon religion are pursued in his desire to get you to accept Mormon teachings.

Do not allow glib, surface responses to go unchallenged; press the Mormon to define the Christian-sounding words he is using.

Define your own terms also. Draw the contrast for the Mormon. Calmly and clearly insist that what you and he believe about the nature of God, the identity of Jesus, the nature of man, salvation and eternal life are different. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Appeal to his honesty and sense of fairness. You might say, "Look, we are not going to get anywhere unless we are honest with each other. Without making any statement about which one of us is right, can't we just acknowledge that we do not worship the same God?" or "Can't we just acknowledge that we do not have the same hope for the future?" Help the Mormon to consider the logical and philosophical problems with the Plan of Eternal Progression.

If God had a Father and He had a Father and so on — then who was the first God? Mormons say it is an "infinite regression." But since there is no way to cross an infinite distance or pass an infinite amount of time, there would be no way to get to "now" and to "us" from an infinite past. Time has to have had a beginning and it did. It began with the creation "of all things seen and unseen" by God. Mormons say that God is omnipotent (almighty, all-powerful), yet they say there are many Gods. There cannot be more than one omnipotent being, so the Mormon conception of God is shrunken and distorted.

A big selling point of the Mormon hope for the future is the idea that families will be together eternally. But if Mormons become Gods of planets and then their children become Gods of other planets — how do the children and parents get together? Can a God leave his planet unattended while he goes to a celestial family reunion? This Mormon selling point would be diminished if we Christians were more vocal about our hope for the "new heavens and new earth" in which we know one another in the all the relationships of our present lives, only in glory (2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1).

Welcome the participation of Mormons in causes which we share for the common good: strengthening family life, fighting pornography and abortion, fostering the virtue of patriotism. We honor each Mormon as a person who desires what is genuinely good for himself, his family and his society — and when we share the truths of the Christian faith with him.

[Logophile]

BYU being a source on "reformed Egyptian?" . . . No thanks.

Why not? There are a number of competent scholars associated with Brigham Young University. Some, I am sure, know Egyptian and other ancient languages at least as well as you do. Why shouldn't their views count?

[Logophile]

As I've pointed out previously the word Nephilim is used in the Old Testament do designate Fallen Angels. The root of the word is indeed HEBREW not Egyptian as Church leaders will proclaim and it means fallen one. Did a "fallen angel" proclaim the doctrine of the LDS to Joseph Smith?

It is an interesting hypothesis, but one that fails on a number of points:

1. According to most commentaries I have read, Nephilim of the Old Testament were not fallen angels, but the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" (Genesis 6:4).

2. There are good reasons to believe that the name Nephi may be of Egyptian origin. See the article Internal Textual Evidence for the Egyptian Origin of Nephi's Name.

3. As we discussed earlier, the angel who delivered the plates to Joseph Smith was Moroni, not Nephi.

4. Three individuals named Nephi are featured prominently in the Book of Mormon. None of them is described as being a fallen angel; none fits the description given in Genesis 6. All three were prophets of God who bore strong testimony of Jesus Christ.

5. For me, the best argument against your hypothesis is provided by the Book of Mormon itself. The book's purpose, as stated on its title page,:

. . . is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever— And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

The rest of the book does indeed testify with great power of Jesus Christ. I submit to you that such a message would be a strange one for a fallen angel to proclaim.

[colorcountry]

As for my supposition that the Mormon Church publishes edited or changed versions of their scripture and history, I have used anti-mormon websites along with verification of my own.

In this instance (with the 3 witnesses) I posted a knee jerk reaction, based on past experiences, which I corrected almost immediately. I doubt if we need to go over the over 3000 changes in the Book of Mormon, or the D & C....as you've said before they are addressed on the Church website to your satisfaction, and on the Tanner's website for my satisfaction.

[Spiff]

Sorry - not using an "anti-Mormon" website.

I'm using hard-copy books. I have a large collection.

OK. Your anti-Mormon books have misinformation. If they were so wrong about Cowdery, Harris, and Whitmer, you've got to believe that they're wrong on other things. You know, I've never felt the need to go out and buy anti-Baptist, anti-Catholic, anti-Lutheran, or anti-faith of any kind. Why would people spend so much time trying to tear down someone else's faith?

There are frequent wandering recruiters from the Mormons, Adventists and Witnesses going through my neigborhood. At a minimum, I hope to save a few of these people when they come to my door.

Those representing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are called Missionaries and your church has its own missionaries too. Young men spend 2 years of their early adulthood as Missionaries and they pay their own way to go out and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Mormon visits have only stepped up now that the absolutely odd-looking temple in Stone Oak went up.

Likely it is because of all the curiousity about the beautiful Temple that has been constructed in San Antonio.

As for "absolutely odd-looking", we can disagree of course, but it is a beautiful structure. Here's an artist's rendering and some exterior and interior photos for anyone who may be curious.

Artist's Rendering

Exterior Photo

Baptistry

Sealing Room

Celestial Room

[colorcountry]

3. The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, Spiros Zodhiates, Th. D.

“The term ‘giant’ from the Hebrew NEPHILIM (5303) is influenced by the Greek term GIGANTES in the Septuagint. Nephilim comes from the verb NAPHAL (5307) meaning “to fall” in general, but is often associated with violence, hence often translated ‘overthrow, fall upon.’ In Numbers 13:32,33 it is also noted that they were ‘men of great stature.’ Emphasis should be placed upon the fact that they were men of violence who had no respect for other men.”

The scholars of the NIV presume it is impossible for angels to have physical bodies. I challenge that assumption. There could be more spiritual paths and creations in heaven than we assume. Let’s also suppose that angels who enter our fallen world can become mortals because of sin, which sin causes death. According to the Bible, then, the “sons of God” or angels could logically fall. And thus, Nephilim, or the name of their children, would be a combination of “Naphlu”, meaning “they fell”, and “hipilu”, meaning they caused the downfall of the world. Interestingly, this interpretation of the word “Nephilim” is given by by Charles B. Chavel, a Jewish Rabbi, in Ramban (Nachmanides) Commentary of the Torah. Although Chavel does not agree with my view on fallen angels, his interpretation of the word Nephilim fits perfectly. Of the six sources I quote, I believe the Jewish mind is a more credible interpretation.

The Nephilim had contaminated the gene pool, and they were spreading their false doctrine of spiritual genetics and spiritual evolution on earth, and therefore, God needed to send the flood to cleanse it. This view also explains why “giants” such as Goliath and others are mentioned in the Bible after the flood. It is probably that some of the genes were passed on through some of Noah’s children or through Ham. The Nephilim had so dominated the gene pool, that even after the flood, the genetic influence was still felt by human beings. (2 Sam 21:16-22; 1Chr 20:4-8; Job 16:14; Num 13:13; De 2:11,20; 3:11-13; Josh 12:4, 13:12, 15:8, 17:15, 18:16) Thus, the interpretation of immortal angels falling into sin and death gives a clearer explanation of genetic origin of the giants mentioned in the Bible repeatedly. Do we have a better explanation anywhere?

The view of fallen angels in Genesis 6:1-5 is not from my own limited ex-LDS perspective, but it has been in the mind of scholars for thousands of years and this view is recognized by Bible commentaries such as the notes in the NIV Study Bible:

This is from another website that shows a different view and does NOT contain Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint propaganda.

http://www.nccg.org/nefilim/ch25.html

[colorcountry]

Now before you slam me for quoting a website of questionable intent and origin......let me tell you, it probably IS questionable.

My real point in posting it is:

Why would you accept as truth the teachings of one man, who started a religion. Why would you use as proof, information that comes ONLY from those who follow and subscribe to the teachings of that man.

Why would you look only at information from the LDS Church to verify it's veracity. Even the scholars of the Church are out to prove one thing and one thing only and that is, THAT THE CHURCH IS TRUE.

All Mormon scholars who dare to say otherwise are no longer LDS, and their findings are not publicized by the Church. The only place you'll see them is by research. But don't take my word for it.

[AlaninSA]

They're not anti-Mormon, Spiff. They're pro-Catholic.

[AlaninSA]

You can add to that the convenient "revalations" received whenever enough attention is payed to their rules that violate societal norms.

Such as...

The "revelation" that polygamy was no longer to "be enjoyed on earth" but was to be saved for the "celestial kingdom."

Or the "revalation" that racial discrimation would no longer be required by the LDS organization (as originally written by Smith in "Doctrines and Covenants."

[colorcountry]

Yes, you can add the convenient revelations also.

There are layers upon layers, precepts, upon precepts that point to the fictitiousness of the LDS Church.

And those in the LDS faith will say the same about it's truthfulness. The problem is, they are the only ones who'll say it.....there is no outside evidence of anything they say. NONE

[Spiff]

They're not anti-Mormon, Spiff. They're pro-Catholic.

Well, there you go. You have to admit that accuracy is an issue with those books, apparently.

[Logophile]

Now before you slam me for quoting a website of questionable intent and origin......let me tell you, it probably IS questionable.

I was not intending to slam you. (I am sorry if you think I did before: that was not my intent.) Quite the contrary. I think the information you posted about the Nephilim is interesting.

However, the Nephilim seem an unlikely source for the Book of Mormon, for the reasons I gave before.

Why would you accept as truth the teachings of one man, who started a religion. Why would you use as proof, information that comes ONLY from those who follow and subscribe to the teachings of that man.

No one should accept the unsupported word of one man. That is why I urge everyone to study the Book of Mormon and ask God if it is right.

Why would you look only at information from the LDS Church to verify it's veracity. Even the scholars of the Church are out to prove one thing and one thing only and that is, THAT THE CHURCH IS TRUE. . . . All Mormon scholars who dare to say otherwise are no longer LDS, and their findings are not publicized by the Church. The only place you'll see them is by research. But don't take my word for it.

I have personally known some of the scholars who have been excommunicated from the LDS Church. For the most part, they have not merely rejected Mormonism in favor of some other branch of Christianity; they have rejected religion entirely. They propose a naturalistic interpretation of religion that leaves no room for the supernatural. They would explain away everything—God, angels, miracles, revelation, the resurrection—as myth or metaphor. Moreover, some have rejected the moral teachings of the Church. One wonders why they should want to remain members of the Church whose teachings they so thoroughly oppose.

[Mikey]

"...the magical underpants. "

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[colorcountry]

Thanks for your polite answers. I didn't mean to imply that you have "slammed" me, it's just that the site I posted is very um, well, slammable! It is not a site that I support or ascribe to, I'd conclude it is spurious.

When I left the LDS faith I was Godless for almost 15 years, much like some of the Church detractors. What I was implying is not to look to them specifically for information, but look at other sources also (than just the Church and a burning in the bosom or acknowledgement from God)

I prayed to God for answers and recieved confirmation the the LDS was NOT the "true" religion. I fought it for years thinking if I just prayed harder or studied more, God would answer me. Then I realized he HAD answered me and his answer was NO.

[tiki]

I'm a Catholic and I agree with you.

[Logophile]

I prayed to God for answers and recieved confirmation the the LDS was NOT the "true" religion. I fought it for years thinking if I just prayed harder or studied more, God would answer me. Then I realized he HAD answered me and his answer was NO.

Then it would seem that you have your answer. You have to do what you believe God wants you do.

[colorcountry]

Thank you - that's the first time I've ever heard that from a Latter Day Saint.

I've been on the defensive for so long now, I guess it's time to go on with God's plan. You too are in the same position...to go on with what you believe God wants you to do.

Maybe we'll meet and have a laugh over this in Heaven!

[Colofornian]

To repent means not to repeat the behavior. If I repeat the sin, then I need to repent again, and work hard not ot repeat the sin.

Boy, you're really up a creek, here. The statement above is not what one of your former president/prophets has written. Kimball, in his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, clearly states that if you commit a sin over again then you have never really repented of the sin in the first place. So, according to the authority of general authorities, any repetitive sin is only indicative that you never got to "first base" to begin with; if you never get to first base, then you cannot simply go back & tag up to try to advance at some future point.

Just think of some of the most obvious sins in the minds of the avg. man. Now apply Kimball's standard to that and you can see what I mean about being up a creek.