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To: bornacatholic
Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty of the sin of deicide, and that it is consequently cursed by God, as depicted in Gibson’s movie on the Passion? * THe SSPX answers "yes" to the question they posed.

As did many of the saints, popes, Doctors of the Church.

- "Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Saviour, for through their fathers they have killed Christ." [St Augustine AOJ; cf. also JUR vol.III:1536]

- "Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads in saying: 'His blood be on us and our children'; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the end of time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood." [St. Alphonsus Maria Liguouri, The Passion and death of Jesus Christ.P.444]

- "Pilate took water in accordance with that, 'I will wash my hands in innocency', in a manner testifying and saying, I indeed have sought to deliver this innocent man, but since a tumult is rising, and the charge of treason to Caesar is urged against me, I am innocent of the blood of this just man .... Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us and on our children. This imprecation rests at the present day upon the Jews: the Lord's blood is not removed from them." [St Thomas Aquinas, Catena Aurea]

- "The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord." [Pope Innocent - III Epistle to the Count of Nevers, 1208]

As unpleasant as these quotations might be, they demonstrate that the Society's stance is no different from what the Church taught. If these teachings above were never deemed "heretical" then the Society is not "heretical" for holding to them. A truth does not become heretical simply because you find it distasteful or you don't like who might be speaking it. A truth doesn't become heretical because it's too harsh for your politically correct sensitivities.

I know if you reply to me at all it will be with a "LOL" or some similar reply that you think passes for something witty. I've posted this just to clear up your miserable calumny of the Society and to put an end to your absurd "anti-semitic heresy" charges once and for all.
185 posted on 09/19/2005 12:04:48 PM PDT by sempertrad ("You call this a multi-media event? This is a slide projector and a bedsheet!" - A. Asparagus)
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To: sempertrad
- "The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord." [Pope Innocent - III Epistle to the Count of Nevers, 1208]

* Denzinger doesn't list this. Other than a schismatic website, do you have a source?

All the other wreitings from the saints are immaterial. Unless baptized and approved and promoted as Doctrine by the Maagisterium, they have no authority.

Now, in the meantime, if you think the Jews cursed, if you think Vatican Two was a Jewish conspiracy, if you think 911 was a Jewish conspiracy, I am not surprised. The rad-trads have a deep, dark, and deadly disease called antisemitism.

It msut be repudiated, not defended. God have mercy on your soul. Repent while you still have time.

P.S. Do you have a single referent from a Papal Encyclical, a Document from any Ecumenical Council, a citation from any approved Catechism teaching what the Jews as a race are guilty of deicide and consequently cursed.

Don't you even read the Bible "And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Our first Pope p[roclaimed their ignorance 12 But Peter seeing, made answer to the people: Ye men of Israel, why wonder you at this? Or why look you upon us, as if by our strength or power we had made this man to walk?

13 The God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus, whom you indeed delivered up and denied before the face of Pilate, when he judged he should be released.

14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just: and desired a murderer to be granted unto you.

15 But the author of life you killed, whom God hath raised from the dead: of which we are witnesses.

16 And in the faith of his name, this man, whom you have seen and known, hath his name strengthened. And the faith which is by him hath given this perfect soundness in the sight of you all.

17 And now, brethren, I know that you did it through ignorance: as did also your rulers.

*Some Jewish individuals acted out of ignorance and this means the ENTIRE Jewish race is cursed?

I have heard that Mel got these nutball ideas from his Daddy. Mayb ehe did and maybe he didnt. But they sure as hell aint Catholic Doctrine.

Catholic Catechism 597 The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost.[385] Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.[386] Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!", a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.[387] As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council: . . . neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . the Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.[388] All sinners were the authors of Christ's Passion

598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."[389] Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,[390] the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, "None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.[391]

Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.[392]

*Semper...flee the schism it has already posioned your mind and it is destroying your soul.

You have now arrived at that place where you will try and publicly claim the Catholic Church Teaches Racism - Can it truly be said that the Jewish race is guilty - and a particularly ugly racism at that - that God's chosen people are cursed.

192 posted on 09/19/2005 1:08:23 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: sempertrad
DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

NOSTRA AETATE

PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI

ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

... 4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows...

I know if you reply to me at all it will be with a "LOL" or some similar reply that you think passes for something witty

*The founder of the schism you defend, lefebvre, signed Nostra Aetate, no? ROTFLMAO Explain how it is that both lefebvre and the sspx opposes what its founder signed in an Ecumenical Council. This should be enlightening :)

Now, maybe you will do what the sspx used to do in re the Dignatatis Humanae controversy . It used to lie publicly that lefebvre never signed it. Of course he did yet nearly a score of years AFTER his signataure was publicly published in the Acta Synodalia the sspx continued to lie he never signed it or other "controversial" documents.

Now, they no longer defend that lie - of course, they didn't apologize for the lie, did they?

Oh yeah, LOL LOL LOL

Over the years the sspx has lied publicly and repeatedly. Well, what does one expect from a schism?

198 posted on 09/19/2005 1:51:41 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: sempertrad
Thank you for apostasizing to the Society of Marcel the Impudent. It relieves Catholics of any obligation for your curious and antiSemitic nonsense. OTOH, you must be thrilled belonging to the SSPX cult with a Holocaust denier like Williamson as a ringleader.

This is not to suggest that antiSemitism is a necessary tenet of the curious "creed" of SSPX. It is certainly too common.

By what authority, in your imagination, did Annas and Caiphas bring down punishment on all future generations of Jews, however innocent?????

201 posted on 09/19/2005 1:59:48 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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