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To: Graves
And now that I have you all loosened up and bent out of shape, maybe we can discuss the extent to which Augustine of Hippo is a high maintenance guy for Protestants and Catholics alike

No one would get much profit from such a discussion with me. I have long been a devoted reader of St. Augustine's but have little knowledge or even interest in the whole grace/original sin controversy.

His opinions on same are very important to be sure, but the tendency to wrench him out of 2000 years of tradition is an unfortunate outgrowth of his popularity in Protestant polemics. IMHO, that's the only reason he looks more high maintenance than any other Father. Most Latins including myself don't follow Augustine on the sense-suffering of unbaptized babies in hell, but rather the Greek Fathers and the Scholastics. His allegorical interpretation of Genesis 1 is likewise not very popular anymore.

Augustine is the greatest Latin Father. He is not however, the only one, and he is not the Church.

On to what extent he is responsible for ECUSA and modernism, look. Either the modernists are misinterpreting him and/or drawing unwarrented conclusions from his writings, in which case why blame him? Or, he intentionally laid the groundwork for modernism, in which case why is he a saint? You telling me that some idiot couldn't do the same thing with St. Basil or St. John Chrysostom?

13 posted on 07/19/2005 2:37:43 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud; kosta50; Agrarian; Kolokotronis; MarMema; FormerLib

Yep, I'm telling you just that, Claud.
"On to what extent [Augustine] is responsible for ECUSA and modernism, look. Either the modernists are misinterpreting him and/or drawing unwarrented conclusions from his writings, in which case why blame him? Or, he intentionally laid the groundwork for modernism, in which case why is he a saint? You telling me that some idiot couldn't do the same thing with St. Basil or St. John Chrysostom?"

I and other Orthodox Christians, went through some of this over the past two-three weeks with the Roman Catholics (see the string "Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology: against false unions [my title]"). Finally, after about 410 posts, I think the discussion with the RCs has ended, but some of it touched on Augustine.
I'll try to keep it short and simple.
Unlike any other Christian father, Augustine allowed for the use of reason, for Greek wisdom. Because of that, he tacitly allowed for individualism. His thinking was not immediately accepted on these matters. His most major opponent was St. Vincent of Lerins whose constant dreambeat in the "Commonitory" was Tradition, "that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all."
For more on Augustine and his influence on Western life and thought (for better or worse, depending on who you are), from an Orthodox perspective, one might want to snag a copy of Fr. Michael Azkoul's ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS. Reviews have been posted at http://www.stnectariospress.com/parish/azkoul's_reviews.html
Have a great day.


14 posted on 07/19/2005 4:05:36 AM PDT by Graves (Orthodoxy or death!)
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