Do dogs go to heaven? (What does your religion say?)

June 2nd | Myself

[stormyseas]

****To say that the Catholic Church went wrong shortly after the resurrection is to claim that you know something about how things SHOULD have went. I believe you and your presumptions are mistaken.*****

First know that they are not presumptions, but facts, to my satisfaction based on history and scripture. Second I never claimed to know something about how things should have went, I only claim to know how things did go based on scripture and history. (which amounts to I suppose the way they should have went because even that which Satan does, goes on to glorify G-d in the end anyway) Third. I never said that the Catholic Church went wrong after the resurrection, but that Constantine went wrong, Mithraism (try to research this, might be interesting) paganism, and anyone else who allowed Satan to deceive them. Why are you so quick to think I am anti Catholic? As you have eluded to by saying I read anti-catholic literature....by saying...(Perhaps you should try reading a more unbiased historical perspective, and not the anti-catholic version. There are many unbiased, secular histories that will disagree with you.) when in fact if you re-read my last post you will see I got it from a lot of sources...also HISTORY. I in fact did not blame the CHURCH for the change. But a Roman Ruler named Constantine (he was not THE CHURCH), and it was not I who wrote it into history. Then I went on to explain the earliest time it can be seen as a written law is when Pope Gregory instituted it thus being the Gregorian calender. And it does matter, it changed a sabbath day (law) and times (days). Daniel 7: 25 “He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,And shall intend to change times and law. (Satan or an anti-christ) But did I blame the CHURCH....NO! Then you quoted....And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat 28:18-20) unquote (from you) and more....etc....(NOW ME and HISTORICAL TRUTH) Take into note this change, the Gregorian calender was not written into law until 1582...long after the apostles...looking closely at my last post you will see that the apostles through revelation do not note ANY change in the original sabbath (or it would be in scripture!). Now this....(YOU WROTE)When did the Catholic Church admit to wrongly instituting worship on Sunday? (YOU WROTE)....(now me)... Read my last post...all of it...:)....A catholic author wrote this, “In commemoration of Christ's resurrection, the church observes Sunday. The observance does not rest on any positive law, of which there is no trace.” Didn't I see in HISTORY Pope Gregory wrote it into law in 1582? OH MY! Then there is a trace....HELLO. It was an admittance to the fact that there was no trace of Sunday worship law in scripture...not Church law. (which means it was changed, WHY? Because the calender was changed, changing days) Again read what I wrote. I blamed all church's because we all adopted it...I blamed Mithraism, paganism and a Ruler Constantine. The truth is...I will go back and start with what happened...I was talking to someone else...you copied and pasted that conversation and replied to it..... Me...."Have you read the book of Enoch?" not me....No, I haven't. I would like to read the extra-canonical books written by the Jews, but it is a bit further down the list of things to read! You...One must be careful when reading non-canonical books SOLELY to come to a judgment on theology. I will defer to the Church on such matters, being that it is divinely instituted for US to KNOW what is the truth. Reply...Soley I never said soley....and US means all people not just the church. And the fact is.... #1 The Jews do not accept the Apocrypha as part of their Scriptures. #2 Protestants do not accept the Apocrypha as Scripture, though some ascribe to them value as "good and useful reading" and "for example of life and instruction of manners." #3 The Roman Catholic 'Church' in effect accepts 12 of the apocryphal books as canonical (omitting I & II Esdras and the Prayer of Manassah from the above list.) Because of this the Roman Catholic 'Church' speaks of the Apocrypha as "deutero-canonical" books, and in turn labels as apocrypha what we may term "pseudo-epigraphical" books."

[stormyseas]

That very last few lines above was an answer and reply, in order to answer your....statement and question: (YOU)Protestants say that our canon (of the OT) should be the same as the Hebrew canon. Supposedly, the Jews are to be the final arbitrator of WHAT is Scripture, not the Church. Of course, this ignores the fact that the same Jews who discarded the Greek Septuagint ALSO DISCARD THE NEW TESTAMENT. If I recall, they also killed Christ! So we should take the Jews' decision on the Deuterocanonicals over the Christian church? (

[stormyseas]

NOW to finish this and get on to something else.... (NOW READ 1-3 above again) But let me be honest, I wasn't talking about the apocrypha but the DEAD SEA SCROLLS. I only briefly mentioned the Apocrypha. The book of Enoch in the scrolls. The Scrolls provide written records of a period for which other documents of the time are very scarce. The next oldest copy of the Old Testament doesn't surface until the 10th century AD, a thousand years later. The Dead Sea Scrolls help to provide a historical and social framework in which early Christianity developed. Anyway...this is what I was talking about. What happens when you die. I had questioned everything and still do, before coming to truth that makes me feel right about it, everything. Anyway I was searching for this truth, mainly about purgatory, I read scripture, Catholic writings....and then I read Enoch XXII, it doesn't say purgatory, but it sure explains it like the CHURCH does. That is what this topic was about. ONE issue. What happens after we die or a dog or what ever. Some how we have misunderstood each other I suppose. For this I am sorry. But the dead sea scrolls are way too new for us to know whether or not they are inspired by G-d or not. And I will not wait for someone to decide for me. As you have said the canon is closed....ok...well they didn't know we would find new works that are 1000 years older than the original either...with an insert from Noah, that is identical to the same writing in Genesis. Bottom line I will work my salvation out, seeking, testing everything, I will just not take anyones word for it, not the CHURCH yours or mine, I will test it. Because how can I be so sure if I don't plus scripture tells me to do just that, how can I know for sure the church (all of them) could not have made more mistakes than they are admitting to? Truthfully, I know as many others can see as time goes on and as scripture get translated to "easier" reading we lose more and more, scriptures have been left out, altered, added....etc. No two bibles read the same today unless edited by the same people. Thus the warning in Revelation to anyone who changes the words....etc...G-d never warns us about things that will not come to pass....he wouldn't waste his time...he could have very well said...watch out there will come a time when it becomes harder to find the truth because of the great apostasy and falling away, men will change these words, so seek the truth for yourself. And that is all I want to do...and don't worry. I will not SOLEY use anything one thing, but my Bible...

[Cvengr]

Good summary of passages regarding animals. I forget, but suspect the Isaiah passage might be interpretted as referencing the Millenial Reign of Christ on earth. Whereas, the heavenly or third heaven reign is a different issue.

There are quite a few Hebrew passages which in some cases refer to animals and man having life as in Nephesh or a breath of life, but also other Hebrew passages consistent with a tricotomous view of man being body, soul, and spirit.

I don't know of any passages wherein animals are every referenced as being regenerated in the spirit and are discernible from man in that respect, but upon biological death, their bodies return to dust.

[stormyseas]

Great answer...:) to the point and very enlightening....thank you.

[Cvengr]

Proof positive??

[proudofthesouth]

If there are no dogs in heaven, I don't want to go there.

That makes two of us!

[stormyseas]

awwwwwwww....:)

[amihow]

My theology, while too revolutionary to be orthodox, is much simpler and wholly scriptural: they already are in Heaven, because they never left it.

With all due respect that comes off not as revolutionary, but illogical.

[Cvengr]

I've looked at a few notes and it's a rigorous topic, actually.

Key words to note are NEPHESH, RUACH, SARX, NESHAMAH, PSUCHIKOS, PNEUMA,

Four views on the origin of the human soul.

1) Pre-existence of all human souls (Origen and the Mormons)
2) Metempsychosis or reincarnation.
3) Traducianism,...soul transmitted through biological life. Body and soul are propagated by human generation or that God creates mediately, rather than immediately, hence body and soul originate from parents. (Tertullian, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox)
4) Creationism,..view of Pelagius, Jerome, most RCC, Charles Hodge, Berkoff, many reformed theologians, ..Creationsm regards the soul as being immediately created by God and joined to the body either at conception or at birth.

Above are just a few notes as a starting point. Once one firms up doctrinal positions on the origin of life, then identifying the animal life and its components seems to drive the appropriate conclusions.

A few added ticklers include: Spirits are able to indwell animals,...the demons cast out of the demoniac and then entered the swine that ran into peril. Also Balam was able to converse with the donkey/jackass. Just from the top of my head,...I don't know the proper answer, but these topics do come to mind.

[stormyseas]

thank you sooo much...If I could only learn to put my words, into such a well suited order....:) it would make for far less complications...(man!)

[annalex]

Where is the illogic?

[jo kus]

May I suggest you read my posts before your long posts. They go on and on about issues that I already answered.

First, you go on and on about Constantine changing the sabbath to Sunday...I already quoted the Didache, written over 200 years before Constantine, that tells us that Mass was celebrated on Sunday, the Lord's Day. Justine the Martyr 50 years after the Didache says the same. Give it a rest on Constantine. Your sources are ridiculously wrong.

Second, I already told you that the Church Fathers did NOT consider the Deuterocanonicals as "Apocrypha". Only Jerome did. The Church Fathers REPEATEDLY quote from the Deuterocanonicals as if they were Scripture. I just got done doing a study on this very same subject, and I can send you numerous such examples. Writings were classified as "Protocanonical", "Deuterocanonical", and "Apocrypha". It is only Protestants, taking Jerome's lead (who was overly influenced by the Jews and the Hebrew language) who began calling the SEVEN (not eleven) books of the Deuterocanonicals as Apocrypha. I have already explained that the decision was inconsistent.

Answer me. Why do Protestants deny the Old Testament Deuterocanonicals as Scripture, yet accept the Church's decision to include the New Testament Deuterocanonicals, such as James and 2 Peter and Revelation???? Both OT and NT Deuterocanonicals were considered Scripture at Hippo, Rome, and Carthage in the late 300's with no distinction. Yet, 1150 years later, Martin Luther (and you) decide they don't belong...Please.

And finally,

You said "...looking closely at my last post you will see that the apostles through revelation do not note ANY change in the original sabbath (or it would be in scripture!)

Who cares! Everything that ever happened from 5 BC to 100 AD is not listed in Scriptures! It is obvious from Scripture itself, such as the ending of John's Gospel, that not everything that Jesus did was recorded in Scriptures. What makes you think that everything the Apostles did would be in the Bible! The Bible tells the Christian community to hold fast to the traditions given, both ORAL and WRITTEN. BOTH.

What did the Apostles other than Peter and Paul do? Did they just sit around? Extra-Biblical sources tell us they went to preach the Gospel to other nations. Is this in the Bible? NO! So your presumption, again, is false. And the writings of the Didache, and Justin the Martyr already, BEFORE 150 AD, show that SUNDAY was the day of Christian worship. Who gave them the power? God. All of this other stuff about Constantine is a waste of time. Christians were worshipping God on Sunday WAY BEFORE Constantine. Continuing your stance on this issue, despite the clear writings, shows your anti-catholicism.

Regards

[jo kus]

"I will not SOLEY use anything one thing, but my Bible..."

Why? Where does the Bible itself give that "tradition of man"? What about oral traditions not in the Bible that we are to uphold? (2 Thess 2:15)


Regards

[stormyseas]

May I suggest you read my posts before your long posts. They go on and on about issues that I already answered.

Somehow you are confused by what I was saying, you thought apparently I was saying something I wasn't...so I summed the whole conversation up so that there would be no more confusion for either of us. Because you came into this thinking I was saying something I wasn't.....anyway that is over. I was just trying to straighten it out. For that I am sorry.


I said to you "...looking closely at my last post you will see that the apostles through revelation do not note ANY change in the original sabbath (or it would be in scripture!) (ME)
(YOU THEN SAID)
Who cares! Everything that ever happened from 5 BC to 100 AD is not listed in Scriptures! It is obvious from Scripture itself, such as the ending of John's Gospel, that not everything that Jesus did was recorded in Scriptures. What makes you think that everything the Apostles did would be in the Bible! The Bible tells the Christian community to hold fast to the traditions given, both ORAL and WRITTEN. BOTH.


Something as serious as a calender change that would change days and years, something that would change a commandment....Keep the sabbath holy. Would have surely been clarified in scripture I do believe, if it in fact were to be changed by divine inspiration. However no where from Matthew-Revelation does it mention it. But I will re-read it.

[connectthedots]

Its nice to know you have resolved all theological issues that have even the least significance, if you have time for this question.

[stormyseas]

Why? Where does the Bible itself give that "tradition of man"? What about oral traditions not in the Bible that we are to uphold? (2 Thess 2:15)



The Bible tackles every moral and unmoral issue and every other issue pertaining on how to live, by divine inspiration. However, SOLEY is not a word. I got it from you. But if it were a word I think it could possibly mean alone. And what I meant was I will not soley (alone) use anything but my Bible when deciding my theological belief...:) And this, I am afraid is up to me, and is not up for debate. :)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen.

Animals are companions for this life; a gift given to us by God.

But in heaven all our thoughts of comfort and happiness will be turned toward Him.

[stormyseas]

By the way do you know what day and date it really is? Justin Martyr didn't matter on this subject of the calender change you see.....only when the calender changed did it matter. It changed the day and the date. So what is today....Saturday? Sunday? Monday? If we use the same calender Jesus and the apostles and G-d used?......Not the Gregorian? Do you see what I am saying now about the calender?

[Corin Stormhands]

After spending all morning (literally three hours) and $230 at the vets, mine almost went a little sooner...

(not because he was ready, but because I was gonna send him)