Posted on 04/16/2005 8:22:52 AM PDT by thePilgrim
Don't be sorry. You'll get it eventually.
The point is unregenerate man can do nothing to save himself. The sun shines on both the saints and the reprobate. Hitler liked animals and Buddhists can love their children.
But unless God's grace regenerates him through faith in Jesus Christ, the fallen son of Adam remains as dead as Lazarus.
Salvation is all of God and none of us, ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world, or else it is a salvation of our good works and sensible choices, just like Rome always said it was.
Total depravity is where every area of a person - the intellect, the will, the body, the soul, etc etc etc - is touched and tainted by the effects of the Fall, and of sin. Let me reemphasize that statement: Total depravity means every area is tainted by depravity. In terms of "doing good things", unregenerate men would do "good" things by accident, as in every case he/she does so with some ungodly desire or end in mind, never with a desire to honor or bring glory to God on His terms.
But "total depravity" doesn't teach that the effects of the Fall apply to just the will. It also affects us physically and psychologically. In several of the threads I've posted this month, Reformed evangelist Francis Schaeffer applies this Biblical teaching in a very practical and encouraging way. I would encourage you to read them (they are short :D ) here and here.
It was the funniest thing I've seen in a very long time.
"The only way you could have gotten a bigger effect was by bringing a gas can with you."
I'll remember that.
***Total depravity means every area is tainted by depravity. In terms of "doing good things", unregenerate men would do "good" things by accident, as in every case he/she does so with some ungodly desire or end in mind, never with a desire to honor or bring glory to God on His terms.***
Let's say that a very wealthy man, who is not saved gives some money to save a Christian whose house is about to be repossessed and feeds him and basically buys him back from the mountain of debt he is under. There is a definite good done for the Christian. Does God not see this as a good thing?
Yet, I hear Calvinists tell me that the unregenerate man can not do anything good. They quote Romans 3:12 to me to prove this. But, it does seem pretty obvious that this unregenerate man has done something Good. Would this not mean that Romans 3 is meant only as a kind of Scriptural exaggeration. My brother Christian has told me the theological term for this.
I also think that I saw somewhere on this thread that the unregenerate man can do some good things and the example I used has the man doing this good thing on purpose, not on accident as you have indicated.
***Hitler liked animals and Buddhists can love their children.***
Doesn't that prove that man is not TOTALLY depraved, but only depraved.
But, these good deeds are not acceptable to God, because they are not motivated by a love for God.
Hebrews 11:6, But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
It is all of Him, and none of us. That's why it's called "mercy." We don't deserve it; it is a gift, paid in full by Christ's death on the cross and promised to us by His resurrection.
He will lose none of the sheep the Father has given Him.
After a discussion on FR about altruism, I went away and looked at scripture. Good only comes from God. Jesus asked, "why do you call me good" in drawing attention to his deity. Without Him we cannot do good,
John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
I thought about what good works are and, of course this passage came to mind,
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Even for Christians good works are tainted with fleshliness, so examine your heart - look at your motive! What does God consider a good work? Do I expect something in return?
If a Calvinist is taking Rom. 3:12 to say that the unregenerate cannot do objectively good actions, they're flat out wrong. That's not what Rom. 3:12's argument is; rather, its argument is that all are under sin (v. 9).
Rom. 2:14 earlier makes clear that the Gentiles, when they do by nature the things the law of morality demands upon them, are both defended and condemned because they sometimes do do what is right, and not all men have committed all sins. This is clearly pre-regenerate man.
Question: Are the works the unregenerate do pleasing to God?
At the same time, the question is not relevent. The question is not whether or not God is pleased by the works natural, unregenerate men can do. It is, rather, whether or not they can do objectively good works.
So, let me see if I understand your position. Man can do good things, but because he is not doing them out of a love for God, then they are not acceptable to God?
Do I have that right?
That's it.
However, even those "good" things done by unregenerate man are only because of God's restraining common grace that allows these good things to happen, which means that if God's restraining common grace were not in place men would be utterly depraved instead of just simply totally depraved.
Ping to #48
What is the objective standard you are referring to? IOW, what is the source of good to which the works are compared?
The moral law that is written on the heart of every man, that we choose whether or not to obey.
OK, but I think it's improper to divorce ostensible "good works" from God's pleasure. Even when the Jews did "good works" according to the Law, God regarded them as a stench in His nostrils because they were not done in faith. I would think God would not fail to be pleased at the site of truly good works, but under your definition of "objective" good works they are clearly not pleasing to God. As such I don't see how they can be considered truly good works. After all, that which is not of faith is sin.
WOW! Wonderful article. Thanks
I'll go back to #48 later if I need to for information. Right now, I'm going to go with what Glenn said.
***That's it.
However, even those "good" things done by unregenerate man are only because of God's restraining common grace that allows these good things to happen, which means that if God's restraining common grace were not in place men would be utterly depraved instead of just simply totally depraved.***
Ok. I just wanted to make sure that I have it right before I continue.
Now, you tell me that the unRegenerate man can do and perform good works because God's common grace enables man to perform these good works. And you tell me that the reason the unRegenerate man's works cannot be accepted by God is because God's grace is operating upon them man.
Before we contine, I just want to make sure that I have that crystal clear.
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