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Lakeland said that a majority of church-going Catholics approve the ordination of women. "So, you can draw your own conclusions," he said. "Either the pope isn't teaching properly or is not teaching the proper thing."

Maybe he's in schism from himself.

Kinda liked some of what was said till I got to this part.

"Lakeland said that a majority of church-going Catholics approve the ordination of women. 'So, you can draw your own conclusions,' he said. 'Either the pope isn't teaching properly or is not teaching the proper thing.' "

Strange that Lakeland doesn't allow for a third option. That Lakeland is totally off in his conclusions.

The majority of CINOs believe that abortion is OK. This must be another case of the Pope not teaching properly or not teaching the proper thing.

I don't know much about Catholic Church history or the reasons why they do things the way they do, but when I investigated an issue I found troubling, I have always found the Church's reasons to be sound.

Best Regards

Sergio

The author has forgotten that while the US is a democracy, the Church is not, nor will it ever. The utilization of democracy in a church setting doesn't work. Look to our brothers in the Episcopal church. With democracy as a model of government within the church, you have no objective truth. All truths are determined by the whim of the current culture. We, as Christians, must recall what Christ said about the "world" and its "wisdom". Christ is counter-culture, so the Church is not meant to be a microcosm of culture.

I do agree that the Church should be held accountable. But as always happens, the pendulum is swinging too far. To say the Church has 20 years, if nothing happens, is an amazing lack of faith in the One who has secured the Church's history, Christ. Lay usurping of Church authority is not the answer. Oversight is one thing, but taking away the Bishop's role as shepherd of the flock is another.

Regards

"Catholics" advocating heresy alert!

Excerpts from article above:

Lakeland said that a majority of church-going Catholics approve the ordination of women. "So, you can draw your own conclusions," he said. "Either the pope isn't teaching properly or is not teaching the proper thing."

Lakeland offered suggestions for ways in which laity could become more involved: a periodic performance review of clergy and bishops; learning church history; integrating seminarians into the life of parishes; expressing their opinions to their pastors; participating in the selection of pastors and bishops; supporting colleges, universities and other places where a free exchange of ideas is allowed; giving preferential treatment to women in responsible roles within the church; open meetings by the National Council of Bishops.

This guy's a theologian? The "queen of the sciences" has sunk to new depths if a professor of theology sounds like a union organizer.

I'd love to see his citation for the women's ordination opinion. But then, he's a professor, he must be right. Sounds great; it's really working out well for the Episcopalians.

We needed a new pastor a couple of years ago and the bishop sent diocesan staff out to pick our brains about what we needed and wanted. Anybody in the parish could have shown up. He didn't have to do that but he did.

They removed the Blessed Sacrament while we used the church for the meeting. (Hey, I was impressed.) We all got to put in our two cents worth (it was a long night) and nobody felt "guided" into agreeing with a decision that was already made. We got a pretty solid young pastor.

Boy where do you start with this? Almost each sentence deserves a correcting response.

Check out this thread: "Catholic lay leaders form group to guide bishops" - kind of a piece.

My my my so much error where do I start? Well as a member of the laity allow me to dive right in.

Re: “"I think we have 20 years and then we've lost everybody," said Paul F. Lakeland”

Polls done in 1978 showed the laity wanted the old Mass back. I doubt this fella would have agreed then nor will he agree now. He wants to use the loud mouthed and disaffected minority laity to advance “his” agenda. The second the majority of the laity goes counter to his goals, I suspect him to be the kind that is first to remind the “adults” to keep their place. We have all seen this tactic before, “we want you to speak your mind when we agree with you but shut up when it is not what we want to hear”. See College professors and liberal student groups for good examples.

Re: “"It's not that we can pluck things from the third century and say that they'll work now," said Lakeland”

So how does this affect your view of the changes made to the Mass in 1968, Mr. Lakeland?

Re: “Lakeland alleges that had the laity been more vocal and held the clergy accountable - "to at least live up to the demands of secular society" - the sexual abuse scandal could have been considerably lessened.”

I agree with this one line. I have never seen any clear doctrine that the priesthood and its Bishops are to be free of any criticism but some in the Catholic Church seem to insist all disapproval is a sin even legitimate and doctrinally correct criticism. This is true even among Tradition Catholics in SSPX chapels. I have never seen any group free from criticism that was not made worse by the situation.

Re: “Lakeland said that a majority of church-going Catholics approve the ordination of women.”So, you can draw your own conclusions," he said. "Either the pope isn't teaching properly or is not teaching the proper thing."”

Heresy is heresy. So much for the Magisterum of the Church and what it has always taught. I can think of no better example where doctrine should not be a matter for majority rule. Just because a man or woman has an opinion it does not follow it is an informed opinion. I doubt most laity has even read the Bible completely let alone the details of infallible doctrines, church history, church tradition and the like. It is too much for most and much of it is relevant to almost any topic the Church has to deal. Laity has a role but shaping Church doctrine is not one of them. They are better suited to DEFENDING doctrine even against the assaults from heretical Bishops, priests, theologians and assorted apostates.

Re: “"Protestant churches do lay involvement much better," he said.”My Protestant friends tell me horror stories and say they hope we know what we're getting into. But I say it's better to have the problems of adults than the problems of children.”

As a former Protestant I know of no Protestant Church that is not in grave error. Please consider the Episcopalian Church – pro active homosexual, pro abortion and riddled with priests who do not even believe the most basic Christian beliefs such as those outlined in the Apostles Creed. The same for many others, i.e. Presbyterian USA, United Methodist, The Quakers (Friends) and too many others too numerous to mention. I suspect these are the very Churches he admires. Show him a Bible thumping, Hell fire breathing Southern Baptist who condemns homosexuals, child molesters, women speaking in church, smoking and drinking and you will see this man blanch white at the thought. Like I said I just bet he is only interested in only select laity involvement.

"The laity must get more involved in the governance and operations of the Catholic Church, leading theologian says"

The first sentence gave the rest of it away. It's called decentralization and if he thinks the Church has 20 years, it is decentralization that will destroy it.

I would bet the 1996 Gallup poll (which, I think, did NOT distinguish between the faithful and the cultural Catholics) is his source of information. If that's the case, he's built his house on sand.

AMERICAN CATHOLICS AND THE NEXT POPE

A SURVEY REPORT

by ANDREW GREELEY (THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO)
and MICHAEL HOUT (THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY)
This brief report will summarize the results of a survey of the attitudes of American Catholics on the kind of man they hope will be elected Pope at the next conclave, whenever that conclave will be.1 Our report is based on a telephone survey of a representative sample of 770 American Catholics conducted by the Gallup organization in March and April of 1996.

I found this through Google. It's a document at temple.edu. Real big surprise, "Catholics" want a radical departure from what they've got. Given that Gallup's sample of the Catholic population is probably flawed, it's useless as a basis for an opinion.

Boy, all these guys have been waiting for a very long time for the next Pope. I hope they have to wait longer and are greatly disappointed.

The Buffalo New .. /sigh/

Lakeland said that a majority of church-going Catholics approve the ordination of women. "So, you can draw your own conclusions," he said. "Either the pope isn't teaching properly or is not teaching the proper thing."

What utter garbage! So many of the protestants coming into the Catholic Church have cited "priestly ordination of women" and "homosexuality" amongst their reasons for migrating to Rome.

Dr. Doug Grandon, a former Episcopal clergyman and Evangelical Free was the guest of Marcus Grodi last night on EWTN's The Journey Home. He entered the Catholic Church at Easter 2003 and now serves as Director for Catechetics in the RC Diocese of Peoria, IL. He made a very astute comment on the program. Dr. Grandon noted that while the Catholic Church has problems (citing examples like Lakeland), a lapsed catholic who returns will find the church doctrines remain intact. This, he said, is not true in the protestant denominations which have spread themselves slim, breaking into thousands of denominations, because they lack central leadership. A lapsed protestant will return to find a very different denomination from the one he left. Their doctrines shift with the times, whereas the Catholic Church stands solidly on her teachings.

He believes he is called to re-catechize 2 generations of catholics who did not receive the proper teaching from the CCC, as well as the present generation. Please keep him in your prayers! He is a man on a mission of restoring authentic teaching to those who have slipped away.

Dr. Grandon is a very articulate speaker. You can hear his story at the folllowing link:

REAL AUDIO LINK

Lakeland said that a majority of church-going Catholics approve the ordination of women. "So, you can draw your own conclusions," he said. "Either the pope isn't teaching properly or is not teaching the proper thing."

OR that Lakeland is a heretic that should be excommunicated.

From an Orthodox point of view, this is quite an affirming article. I say affirming because it rather encapsulates what I have been thinking has been going on in the Latin Church since Vatican II. The professor gets it right when he refers to the ancient role of the laity within the ecclesiology of the early One Church. He seems to be calling the Latin Church back to what is still the ecclesiology of Orthodoxy. But you know, like with so many of the Vatican II calls to more ancient forms, he almost immediately distorts it beyond recognition. This man isn't writing of the ways of the Church which exists in the world but not of it, but rather of some funhouse mirror version, more concerned with ordaining priestesses and personal fulfillment than anything else. Its the same thing as the NO procession with the gifts, a degraded form of the Great Entrance of the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostomos, or the "Petitions of the People", unchanged for 1700 years in those Liturgies, but changed every day in the NO liturgy to advance whatever is the current PC theme of the day in any given parish, or the use of the Psalms and OT reading within the NO Mass instead of in the Orthros, in proper form and sanctity prior to the Liturgy. But these people always assure the Faithful that they are returning to the ancient Church forms. And then, to top it all off, they cite with approval to Protestants!!!

The glorious and surviving, vibrant roots of the Latin Church are still flourishing in the East. Don't let characters like this professor fool any of you. You're being fed lies.