Posted on 01/31/2005 8:55:18 AM PST by sionnsar
For an interesting point of view--and, I think, a thorough explanation of his POV--on the ordination of women, you might read Women's Ordination by the Rev. Greg McComas, a priest in the Anglican Province of America. He writes:
There are two general lines of argument for saying "it's of God," that is, for not ordaining women: from Biblical theology and from systematic theology. Traditional evangelicals tend to be persuaded more by the Biblical theology, Anglo-Catholics more by the systematic theology; whereas I find both to be solid--so much so, that I believe it to be prideful and rebellious for the informed to hold otherwise (yes, there are many uninformed and misinformed).I think he has indeed written a post that combines the Biblical and systematic arguments against WO very well. If you are interested in this topic, by all means check this out.
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams. Now, where's the Biblical argument for ordination of men?
Indeed there are. It is the Gnostic wing which asserts women "were" ordained by Christ. With the not so often direct attack on "males" for hiding this "so-called factoid". This line of thinking SATURATES feminist fiction and non-fiction. That Mary Magdelene was the "13th" (actually the first) apostle. And their thinking is usually buttressed by the scripture: He who is last shall be first. And so on.
Interestingly enough, I have found fewer women than men to be in favor of female ordination.
sure does......sounds like Paul imploring his preferences
8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,
10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
do you allow your wife to speak in Church, or is she to wait until she gets home
does she cover her head in Church ?
Is a female a lesser person in Gods eye?
ping for your interest
Titus 1:5-9; I Timothy 3:1-13.
There is one place (maybe two?) where Paul very clearly states he is writing his own words apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit. This isn't one of them.
Is a female a lesser person in Gods eye?
I certainly don't see anything to suggest that in the Bible. Do you? Is it impossible for men and women to be different without being greater and "lesser" in your eye?
Yes, of course, church leaders are to be qualified and appointed. I was thinking more of the formal, traditional definition of ordination. You know, n years of schooling at an appropriately accredited seminary, certificate on the wall, etc.
My local church has 3 leaders; all meet the Biblical qualifications (including the one about being the husband of one wife). No degrees, no ceremonies, none of that.
Sorry if I buzzed a little too much when the subject of "ordination" came up. It's likely because I grew up in a very large, traditional church where pomp and circumstance and robes and stoles and the like were front and center, while the Gospel was something those crazy "born-agains" (that's me, now) preached about somewhere else.
Now, where's the Biblical argument for ordination of men?
1 Timothy 2:
15: Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
Strange choice of Scripture to prove your point.
A childless woman cannot be saved??????????????
yet were left with his first person exhortation "I" arent we....
I'd be interested in hearing your responses to my questions
You don't really read it that way, do you?
Standards for ordination vary greatly between denominations (and I am using that term in its broadest possible sense, since I know that Baptists and Bible Church folks consider themselves non-denominational) and even within denominations. Baptists, as I recall, don't have any requirements for ordination. Presbyterians generally require a seminary education for pastors (but have provisions for waiver of specific requirements). Ruling elders and deacons are required to be trained (usually by the local pastor) prior to ordination, but seminary education is not required.
I happen to think the most talented pastors I've ever known are women... It may be unpopular among conservatives, but it's true... as shepherds of their flock, women many times have the nurturing nature that makes them excellent pastors and counselors.
My experience is with seminary schooled Lutheran pastors. One in particular who was a terrific friend and pastor who eulogized my grandmother, my mom, and more happily, presided over my marriage vows.
I'm the last person here to put myself forward as a biblical scholar, nor a feminist in it's liberal man-hating usage... but I don't rely on the bible alone to speak to me about the proper role of women in society. With all due respect, it was written for a culture and in a time, when women were no more than property. And yet even in that time, there are biblical women of wisdom and strength. I'd like to think if those women had been in our time, they would have been respected as equals among teachers and leaders of the church.
If I'm wrong to think that, maybe a friend could tell me why I shouldn't view it that way.
No I don't. I see it as Paul in one of his big "I" modes. He was clearly speaking for himself.
All right. My wife is silent during the worship meetings and she covers her head while praying or prophesying (e.g. teaching Sunday School). She is in no way a "lesser person" for doing so.
Here's a book you might enjoy:
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Men and Women, Equal Yet Different: A Brief Study of the Biblical Passages on Gender by Alexander Strauch |
In fact, if you'd care to FReepmail me your mailing address, I'd be happy to send you one.
Depends greatly on your definition of "conservative." My denomination, as well as the one I grew up in ordains women. Both would be conservative in the social and political sense.
My wife is gifted as a teacher in ways that I am not.
I would agree with you that we have to look at context. However, I'm not enough of a scholar (yet) to outline all the reasons I believe women have a place in leadership in the church. I'm working on that. But there are a lot of people I trust who could do exactly that.
There's a lot of thought that women served as deacons in the early church.
And, when wimmin gets too snippy with me about what Paul says about women speaking in church I ask 'em if they've repented for getting their hair cut.
So, reflecting back on your original question, are you saying you think Paul believed a childless woman was condemned to eternity in hell?
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