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The Papacy - Where Peter is, There is the Church
Catholic Legate ^ | September 23, 2004 | Father M. Piotrowski

Posted on 01/20/2005 6:44:04 AM PST by NYer

"Where Peter is, there is the church … he who is not with the Pope is not with God, and who desires to be with God must be with the Pope."

These words, reflecting on the meaning of the visions in Fatima, were uttered by Sister Lucia, the only surviving witness to the apparitions there. Our Lady of Fatima summons us to convert to a living and authentic faith in the only God of the Trinity, who is truly present in the Eucharist. The Mother of God reminds us that the Pope plays a decisive role in the transmission of the fullness of the faith. The Pope, as the successor to Saint Peter, is the rock on which Christ builds his church (Mt. 16:18). It is to Saint Peter that our Lord Jesus granted full authority to infallibly teach the truths of the faith and to lead and govern the entire church. Saint Peter was the first to establish the bishop’s capital in Rome, and to consecrate it with his own blood, the blood of a martyr. For this reason each successor to Saint Peter in the Capital acquires primacy over the whole Church.

Saint Peter resided in Rome and suffered a martyr’s death there in the year 67 A.D., at the time of the Christian persecutions during the reign of the emperor Nero. The exact place of his martyrdom is unknown. Historians believe Saint Peter was crucified upside down in Nero’s amphitheater, which was situated where the Vatican now stands. He was buried at a nearby cemetery. Many years of excavations underneath the Basilica of Saint Peter led to the discovery of the first Pope’s tomb. The tomb lies directly beneath the Pope’s altar in the Vatican Basilica. This tomb signifies that each bishop of Rome is Saint Peter’s successor and by virtue of his office as "the successor of Christ and the Pastor of the whole Church has full, supreme and universal power over the church" (Christus Dominus 2:9).

For thirteen centuries no one questioned the presence of Saint Peter’s tomb in the Vatican. The first to dispute this were the adherents of the Waldensian heresy, who rejected the primacy of the Pope, maintaining that Saint Peter was never in Rome, let alone that his tomb was there. Likewise, Luther and other leaders of the Reformation denied the existence of Saint Peter’s tomb in the Vatican, at the same time calling into question the primacy and infallibility of the Pope in matters of faith.

Excavation work beneath St Peter’s Basilica began in the spring of 1939 following the death of Pius XI, who had expressed the wish to be buried in the Vatican Grottos. During the digging of his grave, the remains of a pagan necropolis from Roman times were discovered. Hearing of this discovery, Pope Pius XII commissioned a team of research workers to begin excavations and investigations, which after several years lead to sensational discoveries. During the 10 years of archaeological work part of a large cemetery was discovered. Its greatest period of development would have taken place between the 2nd and the beginning of the 4th centuries A.D. Sepulchres were discovered along a street, which ran in the vicinity of Nero’s amphitheater. That superbly preserved necropolis is a typical pagan cemetery, and in it are also found Christian graves. To this day one can admire tombs and monuments of unparalleled architectural beauty, which belonged to affluent Roman families.

In the Valerius’ vault a Latin inscription was found: Petrus rogat Iesus Christus pro sanctis hominibus chrestianis ad corpus suum sepultis (Peter prays to Jesus Christ for the Christians buried near his body). In Popilius Herakles’ tomb the following inscription was found; IN VATIC. AD CIRCUM (at the Vatican, near the amphitheater), which confirms the cemetery’s location on the Vatican hills in the vicinity of Nero’s amphitheater. In the main, however, these were sepulchres of families professing a pagan religion.

At the beginning of the 4th century the cemetery was in full use. According to Roman law the tombs were sacred and inviolable. The only reason the emperor Constantine (280 – 337) was required to break the Roman cemetery law in the case of this necropolis was the necessity of building a Christian basilica on the terrain owing to the great devotion Christians had to the tomb of St. Peter, which was located there. The emperor ordered a so-called congestion terrarum, demolishing the northern end of the cemetery and covering tombs which were found in its southern part with earth. The aim was to obtain a wide flat area on the slope of the Vatican hill at the same level as the tomb of Saint Peter, and to begin the construction of the basilica there in reverence to the first Pope. It bears witness to the tremendous veneration in which the first Christians held the tomb of Saint Peter.


Cross section of necropolis below the Bernini altar

The excavations carried out in the central area of the basilica, under the pope’s altar, lead to the sensational discovery of the tomb and relics of St. Peter. First to be discovered was a huge cuboidal marble reliquary almost 3 yards wide. It had been built by the emperor Constantine in the years 321 – 324. A small tombstone, in the shape of a hollowed-out chapel, was found inside the reliquary and was supported by two columns and set in a red-plastered wall. Since this tiny memorial had been enclosed in the reliquary it must have been of extraordinary significance. The research workers had come upon the most important section of the Vatican Basilica and the entire underground necropolis. It became evident that this was the first monument to be erected, in the 2nd century, on St Peter’s tomb. The first Christians considered the tomb of St. Peter a victorious trophy. Since the earliest information concerning the ‘trophy-tomb’ of St. Peter comes from the Roman priest Gaius, this tombstone was called Gaius’ Trophy. Early in the 2nd century the Roman Christian community built the ‘trophy-tomb’ on the unexpectedly modest grave of St Peter, which had quite simply been dug in the ground. On its western side a red plastered wall enclosed it. This wall surrounded a small burial ground about 8 x 4 yards. Many common and simple graves were found there, placed around St. Peter’s grave, on top of which sat Gaius’ Trophy. The tomb of the Apostle Peter was particularly highly venerated, to which the many inscriptions on the so called ‘g – wall’ bear witness, including a large inscription in Greek: "Peter is here at the ‘red wall’."


Red Wall

The research undertaken over many years by Professor Margherita Guarducci led to the discovery of the meanings of the many inscriptions on the ‘g – wall’. They were written by the one person responsible for that place, according to established principles of mystical cryptography, and were both spiritually as well as logically ordered. As an example, we know that the letters u - á mean a transition from the end, that is from death to the beginning, to the fullness of life.

Aside from the names of the dead the name of St. Peter appears, linked with the names of Christ and Mary, as well as the profession of belief in the Blessed Trinity; that Jesus Christ is true God and true man; that he is the second person in the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God, the Beginning and the End, the Life, the Light, the Resurrection, Salvation, Peace and Victory etc. In this manner Christians professed their faith in the Blessed Trinity, Christ’s Divinity, the intercession of Mary and eternal life and prayed for their dead.

This is extremely important testimony indicative of the fact that since the very beginnings of Christianity there was a very deep faith in the Blessed Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the intercession of the Mother of God and eternal life, as well as the primacy of St. Peter.

It is also worthwhile to mention at this point the inscription hoc vince (with this you shall conquer) near Christ’s monogram. It is the Latin translation of a famous Greek inscription ôdoôu íéeáM, which the emperor Constantine saw in the sky, together with a cross, before his victory in the Battle of Milvian Bridge against Maxentius’s armies on October 28 in the year 312.

Archaeologists were very surprised when they failed to find the relics of St. Peter in the grave dug in the ground. They were later found just over 2 yards above the original grave in a recess in the ‘g-wall’. The recess containing the relics was discovered on October 13, 1941. It transpired that the emperor Constantine had transferred the relics of St. Peter from the original grave to the specially prepared recess in the ‘g - wall’ during the construction of the marble reliquary.

The relics became the subject of anthropological studies of many years duration. Initially the studies were headed by Professor Galeazzi Lisi, then by Professor Correnti. The results of the studies were printed in 1965 in a book published by the Vatican: Le reliquie di Pietro sotto la Confessione della Basilica Vaticana.. The bones of St. Peter, placed at the time of the emperor Constantine in the ‘g-wall’ recess, were wrapped in a valuable purple cloth interwoven with pure gold.

The anthropological studies revealed that the bones belonged to one person, a male of stocky build, aged between 60 – 70 years and 5 feet 5 inches tall.

The scientific confirmation of the authenticity of the relics of St. Peter was an extremely important event. During the general audience on June 26, 1968 Pope Paul VI officially announced the discovery of the relics of St Peter. The following day, during the course of formal celebrations, 19 receptacles holding the relics of the first Pope were laid to rest in the recess of the ‘g-wall,’ where they remain to this day.

Father M. Piotrowski, Society of Christ
September 23, 2004


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
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To: Rokke

>>I'm not sure if that is supposed to be impressive or threatening. It's neither.<<

It isn't meant to be either, it's meant to be a statement of fact.
I will point out the people who come onto threads to specifically degrade the Catholic Church.

I'm glad you find it amusing. Enjoy!


121 posted on 01/22/2005 5:39:15 AM PST by netmilsmom (God send you a Blessed 2005!)
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To: netmilsmom

I see youre from MI. Hows the snow treating you? I cant stand it here in East Lansing.


122 posted on 01/22/2005 5:59:36 AM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
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To: CouncilofTrent

It's pretty yucky here.

I'm about 20 minutes north of Detroit. We are waiting for the phone call to cancel my daughters Girls Scout Snowball at 12:30.

I have Library DVDs due back and we are out of coffee. As soon as Daddy gets up, I'll have to brave it anyway. Poop.

The Detroit area has no idea what a snowplow is. I watch these trucks go by dumping salt and not scraping a thing!


123 posted on 01/22/2005 6:08:14 AM PST by netmilsmom (God send you a Blessed 2005!)
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To: netmilsmom

I used to go to Detroit for rehearsals and winter was the worst time to go (even though I took 75 most of the way). Im supposed to go to Mass in Redford tommorrow and Im hoping the weather at least clears up by then. Supposed to be clear tommorrow.


124 posted on 01/22/2005 6:10:11 AM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
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To: CouncilofTrent

Ack! Redford! I lived there for a time. They were always last on the list for snow plows. By the end of the winter, there were two ruts in the ice down our street.

I did hear that the snow will end by six tonight.


125 posted on 01/22/2005 6:25:05 AM PST by netmilsmom (God send you a Blessed 2005!)
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To: Rokke; Agrarian; The_Reader_David
In all honesty, I don't care what the Catholic encyclopedia says, but here I don't think it is saying anything different than what I have said except to this extent. The Churches the encyclopedia is referring to are those ancient Churches such as Antioch which fell into what the orthodox Church believed was heresy and thus were at a minimum schismatics. It does not mean that the bishops of those Churches were not in the Apostolic Succession. What you have read is a particularly Roman view of the effect of heresy or schism, one not shared by all Romans either. It is not what the Orthodox Church teaches. If it did, we would not recognize the Apostolic Succession of any Roman hierarch up to and including the Pope, nor would Rome recognize ours. The Churches of Jerusalem (founded by St. James), of Constantinople (founded by St. Andrew), Rome and Antioch (founded by St. Peter) and Alexandria (founded by St. Mark) all continued in existence through this period and exist to this day.

I'm glad you will read +Ignatius. Try to read all his letters because they are a very, very early witness to the functioning of the Church along the very lines we see in Orthodoxy today. Pay particular attention to his understanding of the Church as a Eucharistic Community. I quoted Fr. John Romanides because on +Ignatius he is a perceptive writer and commentator. Ordinarily I don't particularly like his stuff, but here he is excellent. Give him a read too, if you get the time.
126 posted on 01/22/2005 6:29:46 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: netmilsmom

What I'm saying is that the Pope is not on the same level as Jesus. The man beside Jesus on the cross didn't go through the Pope to get to heaven, nor shall I.


127 posted on 01/22/2005 6:42:50 AM PST by deaconjim (Freep the world!)
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To: deaconjim

I'm not going through the Pope either.
If you think that any Catholic thinks they are, you know nothing about Catholics.


128 posted on 01/22/2005 6:49:22 AM PST by netmilsmom (God send you a Blessed 2005!)
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To: deaconjim

Sorry that was some really poor English...

Should read,
If you think that any Catholic thinks that he/she is, you know nothing about Catholics.


129 posted on 01/22/2005 6:51:46 AM PST by netmilsmom (God send you a Blessed 2005!)
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To: netmilsmom
"Where Peter is, there is the church … he who is not with the Pope is not with God, and who desires to be with God must be with the Pope."

Apparently, at least one believes he/she will.
130 posted on 01/22/2005 6:56:24 AM PST by deaconjim (Freep the world!)
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To: deaconjim

With the Pope, not seeing the Pope as a God.

I'm with George W. Bush, I don't think he is a God.

You're stretching it.


131 posted on 01/22/2005 7:08:36 AM PST by netmilsmom (God send you a Blessed 2005!)
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To: netmilsmom
I am not with the Pope, but I am with God. The statement he who is not with the Pope is not with God is what is "stretching it". In fact, it is patently false. It places the Pope between Jesus and myself, which is a position that no man can ever be in.
132 posted on 01/22/2005 7:29:28 AM PST by deaconjim (Freep the world!)
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To: deaconjim
he who is not with the Pope is not with God

Those who resist their lawful superiors are not with God. "Therefore, he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist purchase to themselves damnation." (Rom 13:2) "Obey your prelates and be subject to them" (Heb 13:17a) "the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God" (Acts 20:28). Of persons who disobey the authority of those appointed by him, Christ said: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector" (Mt 15:17) and "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;" (Lk 10:16).

133 posted on 01/22/2005 7:39:18 AM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: gbcdoj
"Obey your prelates and be subject to them"

Does that include Roger Mahoney, Theodore McCarrick and Howard Hubble?

Did that order apply to Fr. Paul Shanley's altar boys?

134 posted on 01/22/2005 7:56:18 AM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
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To: Land of the Irish
Aren't you on the wrong side, LOTI? Here's some traditional advice from Leo XIII, condemning the Americanist heresy:
But the true church is one, as by unity of doctrine, so by unity of government, and she is catholic also. Since God has placed the center and foundation of unity in the chair of Blessed Peter, she is rightly called the Roman Church, for "where Peter is, there is the church." Wherefore, if anybody wishes to be considered a real Catholic, he ought to be able to say from his heart the selfsame words which Jerome addressed to Pope Damasus: "I, acknowledging no other leader than Christ, am bound in fellowship with Your Holiness; that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that the church was built upon him as its rock, and that whosoever gathereth not with you, scattereth." (Testem Benevolentiae)

135 posted on 01/22/2005 8:00:30 AM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: gbcdoj
I acknowledge John Paul II as the current Pope and I have never disobeyed him regarding ex-cathedra statements regarding faith and morals.

However, I will not bend over for Bishop Daniel Ryan.

Any more questions?

136 posted on 01/22/2005 8:07:09 AM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
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To: Land of the Irish
What's Ryan got to do with anything? We are discussing whether Sr. Lucia's statement he who is not with the Pope is not with God is "patently false" or "places the Pope between Jesus and myself".
137 posted on 01/22/2005 8:11:12 AM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: CouncilofTrent; Rokke; Esther Ruth; OLD REGGIE
If but for moderators having a lack of the same zeal and zest for zotting on Creationist, intelligent design threads respecting outright contemptible malicious, maligning conduct by browbeating evolutionary advocating sophists, the world could be a happier place.

Evolution proponents engage in most despicable and heinous of tactics (including disparaging innuendo, libel and slander) against their opponents. It matters not if the thread originator is Creationist, or advocating intelligent design, evolutinist trolls show up and begin their slash and burn tactics. I have yet to see a ZOT on an evolution thread.

Frankly, I'm unclear just what crime Invincably Ignorant is guilty of. I see no deletion of postings evident, the moderator must've had a burr under his saddle (maybe Invincably Ignorant has a reputation and was on double triple secret hidden probation), or words were exchanged with the moderator in private.

Nevertheless, from what I've seen thus far, its same ol' same ol': don't bother us with facts our minds are made up. Frankly, I view with disdain shrieks of horror against contrarian viewpoints that are voiced as being forms of personal attacks concerning scrutiny, peer review or debate, and is not to be tolerated. This strikes me akin to some cultish brainwashing. Did not the Lord entreat in Isa 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."? Is the Roman Catholic Church above reproach? Are we Christians not to reason together (out of the Scriptures - II Tim 3:16) concerning matters of doctrine and faith?

Concerning the motivation of those who are perceived as Chatholic bashers and their rebuke of Roman Catholic dogma, Jude wrote "it was needful for me to write to you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." The Greek out of which "should earnestly contend" was translated from is epagônizesthai [Strongs 1864] A. T. Robertson says about this word:

"Late and rare (in Plutarch, inscriptions) compound, here only in N.T. A little additional (epi) striving to the already strong agônizesthai (agôn contest). Cf. 1Ti 6:12 agônizou ton kalon agôna"

agônizesthai [Strong's 75, from Strong's 73]; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or genitive case (to endeavor to accomplish something):--fight, labor fervently, strive. Strong's 73 (agon - ag-one') - from 71; properly, a place of assembly (as if led), i.e. (by implication) a contest (held there); figuratively, an effort or anxiety:--conflict, contention, fight, race. Strong's 71 (ago - ag'-o) a primary verb; properly, to lead; by implication, to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specially) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce:--be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

In essence, Jude exhorts his beloved (as addressed in Jude 1), to fight and to actually combat for a cause. And for what cause? It is for the faith. Can one infer a meaning of plurality from this? That is: several faiths? No. Jude 3 intimates the singular. For the faith (têi--pistei). Dative of advantage. Jude is here not referring in the original sense of trust, but rather of the thing believed as in verses: Jude 1:20; Ga 1:23; 3:23; Php 1:27.

Moreover, Paul writes to the Galatians about this faith:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. - Gal 1:6-10" (emphasis mine)

Notice the repetition of Paul's condemnation. Special value is placed upon repetition in Scripture. If something is repeated within a book of the Bible, the point is being stressed by the Holy Spirit (the source of inspiration for all Scripture). If something is repeated within the same chapter the point being stressed as to be considered very important. If something is repeated in consecutive verses, it is something of utmost and extreme importance. And if something is repeated in the same verse, the reader is being grabbed by the lapels and shaken: YOU BETTER PAY ATTENTION TO THIS!.

If the saints are to contend for this faith though, it should be done as Christ admonished his apostles:

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." - Mt 10:16

As sheep in the midst of wolves (hôs probata en mesôi lukôn). The presence of wolves on every hand was a fact then and now. Some of these very sheep (Mt 10:6) at the end will turn out to be wolves and cry for Christ's crucifixion. The situation called for consummate wisdom and courage. The serpent was the emblem of wisdom or shrewdness, intellectual keenness (Ge 3:1; Ps 58:5), the dove of simplicity (Ho 7:11). It was a proverb, this combination, but one difficult of realization. Either without the other is bad (rascality or gullibility). The first clause with arnas for probata is in Lu 10:3 and apparently is in a Fragment of a Lost Gospel edited by Grenfell and Hunt. The combination of wariness and innocence is necessary for the protection of the sheep and the discomfiture of the wolves. For "harmless" (akeraioi) Moffatt and Goodspeed have "guileless," Weymouth "innocent." The word means "unmixed" (a privative and kerannumi), "unadulterated," "simple," "unalloyed."

The saints are to act in all loving kindness to their brothers, not to hurt nor slander, but correcting and edifying, all things being done for the proper glory of the Lord Himself. That being said, Timothy admonishes the saints to:

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. " - 2 Tim 4:2-4

A.T. Robertson New Testament Word Pictures explains, Preach the word (kêruxon ton logon). First aorist active imperative of kêrussô. "the word" is used absolutely (see 1Th 1:6; Ga 6:6). Be instant in season, out of season (epistêthi eukairôs akairôs). Second aorist (ingressive) active imperative of ephistêmi (intransitive use), "take a stand," "stand upon it or up to it," "carry on," "stick to it." The Vulgate uses "insta." The two adverbs are like a proverb or a play (pun) on the word kairos. There are all sorts of seasons (kairoi), some difficult (chalepoi, 2Ti 3:1), some easy (eukairêi, 1Co 16:12). Reprove (elegxon). First aorist active imperative of elegchô. "Bring to proof." (Eph 5:11). Rebuke (epitimêson). First aorist active imperative of epitimaô, to give honour (or blame) to, to chide which is common in the Gospels (Lu 17:3). Exhort (parakaleson). First aorist active imperative of parakaleô, a common Pauline word. [Strong's 3870: to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):--beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort(-ation), intreat, pray.]

A time when (kairos hote). One of the akairôs (out of season) times. Will not endure (ouk anexontai). Future middle (direct) of anechô, they "Will not hold themselves back from" (Col. 2Ti 3:13). Having itching ears (knêthomenoi tên akoên). Present middle (causative) participle of knêthô, late and rare form of the Attic knaô, to scratch, to tickle, here only in N.T. "Getting the ears (the hearing, tên akoên) tickled." (The Vulgate uses "prurientes"). Cf. the Athenians (Ac 17:21). Clement of Alexandria tells of speakers tickling (knêthontes) the ears of those who want to be tickled. This is the temptation of the merely "popular" preacher, to furnish the latest tickle.

Will turn away their ears (tên akoên apostrepsousin). Future active of old verb apostrephô (See 1Co 12:17 for this use of akoê). The people stopped their ears and rushed at Stephen in Ac 7:57. Will turn aside (ektrapêsontai). Second future passive of ektrepô, prefering "myths" to "the truth" as some today turn away to "humanism," "bolshevism," "new thought" or any other fad that will give a new momentary thrill to their itching ears and morbid minds.

It is for all the foregoing reasons that some (and I sincerly believe they are my brothers (or sisters) in Christ), who may be perceived by some as being "Catholic bashers", post to what are perceived to be "Catholic domain" threads. And frankly, I have no qualms, nor aversion against, doing so with either Muslims, Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, (you name 'em), meaning anybody else "...who would pervert the Gospel of Christ...[or]...preach any other gospel unto you that which we [Paul] have received [as revealed by Christ to Paul personally]" (and all apostles were of like mind), and indeed have I have personally done so, privately, on other forums (not Free Republic) and in the open air (on the streets and the commons at universities).

Sincerely,

and still (somewhere) "in the gap" (Ez 22:30) -

Raygun

138 posted on 01/22/2005 8:25:36 AM PST by raygun
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To: gbcdoj
What's Ryan got to do with anything?

It came from here:

"Obey your prelates and be subject to them" (Heb 13:17a)

BTW, since when has Sister Lucia become a prelate?

139 posted on 01/22/2005 8:26:31 AM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
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To: Land of the Irish
Do you accept the scripture "Obey your prelates and be subject to them" (Heb 13:17a) as God's Word? If so, why protest when it's cited to prove a point that has nothing to do with Bp. Ryan.

No one said Sr. Lucia is a prelate. She stated in the thread article, as you know, he who is not with the Pope is not with God. The discussion here is whether this statement is false because "it places the Pope between Jesus and myself".

140 posted on 01/22/2005 8:58:23 AM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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