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To: dsc
The essence of protestantism is rejecting the spiritual wealth of the Church.

Most of the Catholic doctrines I reject did not exist in the first millenium. They were inserted later, starting in ernest with Gregory.

Christ dispenses salvation, not the church burocracy. Catholics and Protestants both tend to confuse the bride and the bridegown. That's just part of materialism.

7 posted on 12/31/2004 7:28:59 PM PST by derheimwill (Love is a person, not an emotion.)
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To: derheimwill
Christ dispenses salvation, not the church burocracy.

I think you are confused in debating either or on something that does not occur. Salvation is not dispensed -salvation if obtained is obtained by grace -coming closer to God through Jesus Christ's teachings; not the concept of Jesus -the teachings of Jesus. So, how does one gain understanding in and obediently embrace these teachings -osmosis?

8 posted on 12/31/2004 9:44:36 PM PST by DBeers
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To: derheimwill

"Most of the Catholic doctrines I reject did not exist in the first millenium."

Someday someone is going to hit me with an argument against Catholicism that is not grounded in factual error.

Someday...but not, apparently, today.

All the doctrines you named in your previous note existed well before the second millennium. Whatever source told you differently is in error.

While the doctrine of purgatory was first formalized in 1013, the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV) noted, "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory..." (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

The "ancient tradition of the fathers" takes us back to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries.

It is also worth noting about purgatory that, "At the beginning of the Reformation there was some hesitation especially on Luther's part (Leipzig Disputation) as to whether the doctrine should be retained, but as the breach widened, the denial of purgatory by the Reformers became universal, and Calvin termed the Catholic position "exitiale commentum quod crucem Christi evacuat . . . quod fidem nostram labefacit et evertit" (Institutiones, lib. III, cap. v, 6). Modern Protestants, while they avoid the name purgatory, frequently teach the doctrine of "the middle state," and Martensen ("Christian Dogmatics," Edinburgh, 1890, p. 457) writes: "As no soul leaves this present existence in a fully complete and prepared state, we must suppose that there is an intermediate state, a realm of progressive development, (?) in which souls are prepared for the final judgment" (Farrar, "Mercy and Judgment," London, 1881, cap. iii)."

"Christ dispenses salvation, not the church burocracy."

Why would you bother to make that argument? The Catholic Church has never taught that salvation comes from any source other than Jesus Christ, Our Lord.


9 posted on 12/31/2004 10:33:32 PM PST by dsc
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To: derheimwill
Most of the Catholic doctrines I reject did not exist in the first millenium. They were inserted later, starting in ernest with Gregory.

Try actually reading the Early Church Fathers. It's a real eye-opener into what Prots think are historical Christian beliefs.
30 posted on 01/01/2005 8:08:48 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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