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To: Kolokotronis
I never said JPII's motives were "sinister" Kolo. I never considered them "sinister." The uniate strategy backfired and hardened the East. So, the next step is to soften it. By appearing concessional, it appeals to the weak and to those who feel empowered by being courted by the powerful. That breaks up the opponent from within. This is particularly effective because we all deep down inside want a re-union, as we see it possible.

The Eucharist is a symbol of Unity inasmuch as we all partake and become united through Him. It is above denominations. This is what Luther was trying to convey to the Church, when he said there is no salvation outside of Christ and not the Church.

We don't differ in our image of Christ from Catholics and Protestants. I can see the Eucharistic split with Monophysites, yet we can use economy with them but not with those who see Christ just as we do, especially the Catholics!

What is the Church protecting by denying the Eucharist to the Catholics or even the Protestants who are willing to partake of it? The Church teaches that partaking falsely of the Eucharist will not be judged lightly, yet it cannot apply the same rule to the non-Orthodox?

The truth is, Kolo, that those who are believers will receive the Gifts properly no matter what church they belong to. In that, there will be a Union of all Christians regardless of the denominations in spite of the roadblock placed before them. For God knows and doesn't need us to protect Him from fraud.

Denying the Eucharist to a whole group of people because they believe in the same Lord Jesus Christ as we do but do not cross the same way as we do is in effect saying they are "unworthy of it." We reiterate that every time we find it necessary to chrismate those "heretics" before they can become worthy members of God's Communion.

Thus the Eucharist is not the ultimate physical symbol of actual Unity (because we know that some take it in an unworthy manner), but rather a physical weapon the Church has used to separate, punish and scare people with. That, to me, is very un-Christian. Did not Jesus help the Canaanite woman? Jews were not allowed to mix with Canaanites, yet He showed us that in God there are no such divisions.

If you don't believe, as I don't, that Jesus would have denied that menstruating medieval Russian woman His salvific grace for three years (as her priest did) because she was "unclean" in His church, then you and I both know that the Church committed a sin in His name, and desecrated Eucharist by using it as a tool for punishment.

We can sugar-coat all these issues but the bottom line is clear: the Church is good at preaching and teaching, but not living in Christ.

471 posted on 12/16/2004 8:03:07 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Kosta we are an experiential faith. You cannot really live the faith where you are now, outside the church. So apparently you have chosen to compensate by deciding the church is corrupted or unimportant or hypocritical, or any of the other labels you have spewed forth recently.

In my eyes, you really are in no position to make those claims since you don't attend an Orthodox church currently and are not part of a parish. Being part of a parish is an integral part of "becoming Orthodox". We are saved as a community. Where is your community?

472 posted on 12/17/2004 9:27:24 PM PST by MarMema
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To: kosta50

For Orthodox Christians, the Eucharist is a visible sign of unity; to receive the Eucharist in a community to which one does not belong is improper. If one does not accept all that the Church believes and teaches and worships, one cannot make a visible sign of unity with it. The Eucharist is the result of unity, not the means by which unity is achieved. While many non-Orthodox see this as a sign that the Orthodox Church excludes non-Orthodox from the Eucharist, in reality the opposite is true. Because a non-Orthodox individual has chosen not to embrace all that Orthodox Christianity holds, the non-Orthodox individual makes it impossible for an Orthodox priest to offer him or her communion. It is not so much a matter of Orthodoxy excluding non-Orthodox as it is the non-Orthodox making it impossible for the Orthodox to offer the Eucharist.


473 posted on 12/17/2004 9:41:17 PM PST by MarMema
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To: kosta50
If you don't believe, as I don't, that Jesus would have denied that menstruating medieval Russian woman His salvific grace for three years (as her priest did) because she was "unclean" in His church, then you and I both know that the Church committed a sin in His name, and desecrated Eucharist by using it as a tool for punishment.

Kosta I sincerely doubt that the priest ( not the church) committed a sin in His name. I say it this way because I admit that it is not my place to determine this anyway....nor is it yours, even if you think so.

What happens in life is that sometimes people make mistakes. You would throw the entire world of bathwater out the window for one bubble you don't like.

The biggest problem with Orthodoxy today is that far too many people become much like you seem to be recently. Looking for perfection outside themselves but forgetting to glance occasionally in the mirror and see their own imperfections.

Some have had experiences in Orthodox churches which did not leave one with great feelings afterward. But most of us remember that we also have contributed to the pollution of sin in the world, and we get back up and try again.

I personally do not go to church to look around and say, "Oh, look at the perfect people here". I personally see and hear priests who come out from the altar and bow to the parishioners asking forgiveness for their sins. I personally had one experience with a priest where we spoke harshly to each other ( though nothing compared to most of the threads here on a daily basis) and we both forgave each other.

It's a boatload of people working toward the same goal, all sinners, even the clergy. What happens for me, and what I suspect you are seriously in need of and lacking, is that I experience a random event or situation where I feel certain that God is expressing love toward me through another parishioner. Or I create a faux pas in conversation and people at church overlook it, change the topic, or laugh and hug me in spite of it. Or a tension arises over something at a time when people are stressed, and we both almost snap at each other, but we restrain ourselves and solidly commit to staying loving in our behaviors.
These are the sparks of divine love which can be tasted here, in this life, and in due time, I believe they become the fabric of our community life.
Additionally they are fuel, important fuel. Because they somehow reproduce themselves. After 'enough' of these sparks, a person at church insults me or creates their own faux pas, and I am now prepared to overlook or laugh with them about it.

Being Orthodox truly changes us, slowly but surely over time. A big part of that change takes place in a community parish. We need to attend and be part of that community in order to grow.

You have fallen into what I think of as Gruschenka's territory. You need healing, imo, and badly.

Awhile back you gave me some definitions of what the church is. I prefer the definition from Khomiakov, who said that the church is the bond of unity among us. If Alexy is correct in his sobornost-biased definition, then you are pretty much in an impossible position - without a parish, without a community, and without the sacrament about which you speak so often.

475 posted on 12/17/2004 10:13:36 PM PST by MarMema
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