Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: kosta50
If you don't believe, as I don't, that Jesus would have denied that menstruating medieval Russian woman His salvific grace for three years (as her priest did) because she was "unclean" in His church, then you and I both know that the Church committed a sin in His name, and desecrated Eucharist by using it as a tool for punishment.

Kosta I sincerely doubt that the priest ( not the church) committed a sin in His name. I say it this way because I admit that it is not my place to determine this anyway....nor is it yours, even if you think so.

What happens in life is that sometimes people make mistakes. You would throw the entire world of bathwater out the window for one bubble you don't like.

The biggest problem with Orthodoxy today is that far too many people become much like you seem to be recently. Looking for perfection outside themselves but forgetting to glance occasionally in the mirror and see their own imperfections.

Some have had experiences in Orthodox churches which did not leave one with great feelings afterward. But most of us remember that we also have contributed to the pollution of sin in the world, and we get back up and try again.

I personally do not go to church to look around and say, "Oh, look at the perfect people here". I personally see and hear priests who come out from the altar and bow to the parishioners asking forgiveness for their sins. I personally had one experience with a priest where we spoke harshly to each other ( though nothing compared to most of the threads here on a daily basis) and we both forgave each other.

It's a boatload of people working toward the same goal, all sinners, even the clergy. What happens for me, and what I suspect you are seriously in need of and lacking, is that I experience a random event or situation where I feel certain that God is expressing love toward me through another parishioner. Or I create a faux pas in conversation and people at church overlook it, change the topic, or laugh and hug me in spite of it. Or a tension arises over something at a time when people are stressed, and we both almost snap at each other, but we restrain ourselves and solidly commit to staying loving in our behaviors.
These are the sparks of divine love which can be tasted here, in this life, and in due time, I believe they become the fabric of our community life.
Additionally they are fuel, important fuel. Because they somehow reproduce themselves. After 'enough' of these sparks, a person at church insults me or creates their own faux pas, and I am now prepared to overlook or laugh with them about it.

Being Orthodox truly changes us, slowly but surely over time. A big part of that change takes place in a community parish. We need to attend and be part of that community in order to grow.

You have fallen into what I think of as Gruschenka's territory. You need healing, imo, and badly.

Awhile back you gave me some definitions of what the church is. I prefer the definition from Khomiakov, who said that the church is the bond of unity among us. If Alexy is correct in his sobornost-biased definition, then you are pretty much in an impossible position - without a parish, without a community, and without the sacrament about which you speak so often.

475 posted on 12/17/2004 10:13:36 PM PST by MarMema
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 471 | View Replies ]


To: MarMema
Kosta I sincerely doubt that the priest ( not the church) committed a sin in His name

That places the priest (a sinner) above the Church.

The biggest problem with Orthodoxy today is that far too many people become much like you seem to be recently

So, it's not your place to determine if the priest did something wrong by excommunicating a woman suspected of being "unclean" for three years. but it is your place to say that I am a problem?

What happens in life is that sometimes people make mistakes

Every day, MarMema, not just sometimes. Even when you don't think you are.

Some have had experiences in Orthodox churches which did not leave one with great feelings afterward

They must be far and few in between, and I certainly have not experienced anything like that. I have encountered some arrogance and pride, but then who is without it?

I personally see and hear priests who come out from the altar and bow to the parishioners asking forgiveness for their sins

That's very kind of him. My point. Perhaps he should include his as well?

Looking for perfection outside themselves but forgetting to glance occasionally in the mirror and see their own imperfections

I hold the Church and clergy to higher standards. You should too. I do not think the Body and Blood of Christ is an Orthodox prerogative. That's not asking for perfection, MarMema. When I say the Church doesn't save us, God does, I reiterate that we are not perfect lest we should forget and begin to act as if we are. The Church is good at preaching the word of God but not living it, and that goes for the clergy and laity.

We are hiding behind man-made rituals as if they were something holy. We are hiding behind physical signs as if they are something we own and others can't have. That's not what Jesus taught.

You need healing, imo, and badly

Wow! Exorcism no doubt? Thank you, doctor. Now I know. As long as you know that, should I quote you from above, "it is not my place to determine this anyway....nor is it yours, even if you think so," lest we misunderstand each other. You seem to be perfectly at home (aka it is your place) to determine what I lack.

I think you have never broken with you Catholic mindset, where pray, pay and obey is the rule. I am sorry, MarMema, it must be comforting to feel driven by someone else, but I prefer to do the driving myself. I question, because I believe. I see Christ on the one hand and the Church on the other. When the Church begins to live in Christ as much as it talks Christ, I am sure I will feel closer. I doubt that it will be any time soon.

481 posted on 12/18/2004 12:08:17 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 475 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson