Replies

"The original poster should prove that JPII has written and spoken heresy."

Fair enough, if you really insist that I provide examples, I will, but it gives me no great pleasure to do so, and I'm not going to go chasing all over the internet to find the original quotes. If you want those then use a Search Engine.

Firstly though, I will have to say that I don't quite agree with CouncilofTrent that Assisi and kissing the Qu'ran were acts of heresy. The latter was more like an act of apostasy. In the first centuries of our faith, Christians were prepared to be put to death rather than offer incense to the Roman emperor - our liturgical calendar and breviary are filled with the glorious witness of these martyrs. How appalling then, that a Bishop of Rome, without any compulsion as an excuse, should kiss that demon-spawned tome of filth and lies called the Qu'ran. That those lips which were given to venerate the Sacred Gospels in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should be pressed into such sullied use is an abomination and cause of grave scandal to the faithful. I sincerely hope he has repented of this.

But, as to the matter of speaking heresy, I offer this example where he is quoted in an official document of the USCCB - Reflections on Covenant and Mission:

"John Paul II has explicitly taught that Jews are "the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God,"2 "the present-day people of the covenant concluded with Moses,"3 and "partners in a covenant of eternal love which was never revoked."4"

Footnotes:

2. John Paul II, "Address to the Jewish Community in Mainz, West Germany," November 17,1980.

3. Ibid.

4. John Paul II, "Address to Jewish Leaders in Miami," September 11, 1987.

Quite apart from 2,000 years of Magisterial teaching that the New Covenant did truly fulfil, replace and supercede the Old Covenant, we have the following clear testimony of Holy Scripture:

Eph. 2,14 "For he is our peace, he who made both one (Jew & Gentile) and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, (15) ABOLISHING THE LAW WITH ITS COMMANDMENTS AND ORDINANCES, that he might create in himself one new person IN PLACE OF THE TWO, thus establishing peace, (16) and might reconcile both with God, IN ONE BODY, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it."

Heb 7,12 "When there is a change of the priesthood, there is necessarily a change of the law as well."

Heb 7,18 "There is, on the one hand, THE ABROGATION OF AN EARLIER COMMANDMENT because it was weak and ineffectual (for the law made nothing perfect); there is, on the other hand, the introduction of a better hope, through which we approach God."

Heb 8,9 "...not like the covenant that I made with their ancestors, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND SO I HAD NO CONCERN FOR THEM, says the Lord."

Heb 8,13 "In speaking of a "new covenant", he has made the first one OBSOLETE. And what is obsolete and growing old is close to DESTRUCTION."

As we heard from today's Gospel (N.O.), Christ Himself prophesied this destruction, and it did in fact take place in 70 A.D.

Of course these errors by the Pope have been expanded by Cardinal Kasper to assert the following:

"As Cardinal Kasper noted, "God’s grace, which is the grace of Jesus Christ according to our faith, is available to all. Therefore, the Church believes that Judaism, i.e. the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable covenant, is salvific for them, because God is faithful to his promises."21"

Not only has the Pope made no retraction of his statements, that I am aware of, but also he has failed to correct the heretical underling whom he himself appointed as a Cardinal.

There are other areas which one could dwell on such as:

i) His teaching that hell is a state, not a place and thereby denying the physical resurrection of the body which we profess in the creed.

ii) His tendency toward universalism in some of his documents where the implication is made that all men will be saved.

However, as I said above, I don't have the time to look up the original sources of these, so if anyone else wants to do the legwork, please do.

(I'm sure VCR must have something on these issues that can be simply posted here!)

"John Paul II has explicitly taught that Jews are "the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God,"2 "the present-day people of the covenant concluded with Moses,"3 and "partners in a covenant of eternal love which was never revoked."

Thanks. I've always respected your opinions and knowlege so I was very interested in what specifically you think was heretical.

Quite apart from 2,000 years of Magisterial teaching that the New Covenant did truly fulfil, replace and supercede the Old Covenant, we have the following clear testimony of Holy Scripture:

In a nutshell, the offending idea is "God never revoked the Old Covenant."

It may be of interest that the Catechism,( 1965-1974 ), and I would recommend a careful reading that instantly rewards ( read the scripture references as well), does not say that the Old Covenant has been replaced. In fact, 1968 says that "....far from abolishing or devalueing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law...."

But maybe I'm off target. Are the terms Old Covenant and Old Law interchangeable?

My sense is that because the Church has always valued the Decalogue of the Old Covenant, the pope must be talking about another aspect of the covenant that he is mistaken about.

Firstly though, I will have to say that I don't quite agree with CouncilofTrent that Assisi and kissing the Qu'ran were acts of heresy. The latter was more like an act of apostasy.

*The Pope acted like an apostate? Sheesh. What a bunch of bull. Search "should the Pope kiss the Koran?" at Biblical evidence for Catholicism (david Armstrong's site). Also, the High Schooler Apolonio Latar has written a good defense of the action of the Pope.

In the first centuries of our faith, Christians were prepared to be put to death rather than offer incense to the Roman emperor - our liturgical calendar and breviary are filled with the glorious witness of these martyrs. How appalling then, that a Bishop of Rome, without any compulsion as an excuse, should kiss that demon-spawned tome of filth and lies called the Qu'ran. That those lips which were given to venerate the Sacred Gospels in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should be pressed into such sullied use is an abomination and cause of grave scandal to the faithful. I sincerely hope he has repented of this.

It is you who needs to repent for unjustly judging the Pope acted like an apostate. The only ones I see taking scandal are the self annointed experts - whose expertise and judgement is sorely lacking here. The Pope has forgotten more theology then the lot of you will ever come to know. It is also useful to note that the Pope was not offering incense or engaging in any liturgical action when he kissed the Koran.

But, as to the matter of speaking heresy, I offer this example where he is quoted in an official document of the USCCB - Reflections on Covenant and Mission:

The Old Testament

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).

*The Pope is right, his critics formal (if not material) heretics.

There are other areas which one could dwell on such as:

i) His teaching that hell is a state, not a place and thereby denying the physical resurrection of the body which we profess in the creed.

Pope - "More than a place, Hell is the state of the one who freely and finally removes himself from God, the source of life and joy."

* Why are you among those who judge the Pope a heretic when, time after time, it is proven he is a Holy Man whose intellect and orthodoxy is beyond reproach? Sheesh. This is quite maddening. The Pope is always presumed guilty. I'll give the schismatics their due. They have "effectively" sown discord, enmity and division to the point where far too many Catholics act as though we live under a heretical/apostate Living Magisterium. That that condition would mean Jesus has abandoned His Universal Church, the Pillar and Ground of Truth seems an inconsequential side note to the endless unjust charges against the Pope, the Council and the Mass.

Again, it needs pointing out that those who fail in this epoch of testing is not the Pope and the Living Magisterium, it is those who judge them heretical. They are the ones who have lost the Faith.

ii) His tendency toward universalism in some of his documents where the implication is made that all men will be saved.

*"tendency towards universalism" is evidence of heresy?

However, as I said above, I don't have the time to look up the original sources of these, so if anyone else wants to do the legwork, please do.

* Try and prove the Poe is a heretic is your suggestion? LOL Yes, I guess that is what it has come down to in these pages. Let us set about proving the Pope is a heretic. THat is the traditional action of a member of the Body of Chirst LOL

I suggest your time would be better spent dropping the unjust assaults against a good and holy man whose understanding of theology is light years beyond yours and whose orthodoxy, outside of the insane attacks and charges of the schismatics and protestants (kissing cousins)is unquestioned.

Or, perhaps you really do think we Catholics have been burdened with heretics/apostates since Pope Pius XII and that Vatican II will be "repealed" and a future council will declare Popes John 23 - Pope Paul II heretics and the restored Liturgy an abomination blah, blah, blah. If so, call the Remnant today. They are looking for a few good schismatic men.