Posted on 11/04/2004 5:52:42 PM PST by gobucks
Question:
I go to a Christian college and a lot of my friends discuss the “once saved, always saved” versus “salvation can be lost” controversy. What do Orthodox Christians think about this question?
Father Michael Gillis Responds:
To tell the truth, Orthodox Christians don’t think about this controversy at all - at least not in these terms. Discussions about “once saved, always saved” are based on a particular Protestant understanding of what it means to be “saved.” Orthodox Christians conceive of salvation quite differently than most Protestants do.
For an Orthodox Christian, to be saved means nothing less than to participate fully in the divine energies of God. For most Protestants, to be saved means to have one’s sins forgiven so that one can go to heaven when he dies. This Protestant understanding of salvation is often spoken of in the present perfect tense and passive voice - “I have been saved” - because in the Protestant understanding, salvation is something God does without our participation (passive voice) that we “accept” at a particular point in time (present perfect tense). The controversy among Protestants is whether or not one’s condition as “saved” can be lost once “truly” received.
In contrast, Orthodox Christians see salvation much more as a process that involves human participation, or synergy. That is, we cooperate with God in our salvation, much as a farmer cooperates with nature (and ultimately with God) in the growing of wheat. A farmer labors to prepare the soil and sow the seed in much the same way that an Orthodox Christian labors to control his body and mind (fasting), participate in the liturgical life of the Church (prayer), and love his neighbor (almsgiving). And in the same way that nothing the farmer does earns the rain nor makes the seed he has sown germinate, the prayer, fasting, and love of neighbor of an Orthodox Christian do not earn him salvation. They do, however, align him to receive the grace (divine energy) of God that comes to him.
If you take a look at Ezekiel 11:18-19, you can see an example of this synergistic or cooperative work of salvation. In verse 18, God’s people prepare themselves by removing vile images and detestable idols, and in verse 19 God gives them new hearts of flesh. God’s people do not earn new hearts by their actions, but their actions prepare them to receive new hearts. Their actions cooperate with the grace of God.
I must admit that words and concepts fail to explain these matters clearly, for our salvation is a mystery. Nonetheless, you can see that for Orthodox Christians, salvation is much more than just forgiveness of sins and going to heaven when we die. Salvation is the eternal (not merely lifelong) process of becoming more and more like our Savior. Consequently, “once saved” has no meaning in an Orthodox context.
To frame the question somewhat differently, an Orthodox Christian might ask, “Can you stop cooperating with God?” Here the answer is yes. You can deny, rebel against, betray, and reject the grace of God. Even one of the Twelve betrayed the Savior. However, we must be careful not to point fingers or go looking for “Judases” in our midst. Much of what appears to be denial, rejection, or even blasphemy is merely evidence of a deep valley a person is passing through in which he comes to terms with his own weaknesses or sheds inadequate concepts of God (and in the end, all concepts of God are inadequate). I refer you to the complaint of Job, the initial rejection of the father by the prodigal son, the denial of Peter, and the doubting of Thomas.
Salvation is not something that is merely on or off like a light switch; it is much more like the permeation of water into a sponge. Dryer, harder sponges need to soak longer (and perhaps in hotter water). The biblical exhortations not to harden our hearts (Hebrews 3:8 and many other places) are exhortations to cooperate with the grace of God. But “harden” and “soften” describe degrees, not absolute conditions. Salvation is not something that we gain in an instant and can lose just as quickly. Our salvation is a process, which we sometimes fully cooperate with and sometimes resist. May God help us always to cooperate.
Father Michael Gillis is pastor of Holy Nativity of Christ Orthodox Mission in Langley, British Columbia, Canada.
Exactly. It is God who works in us.
And because GOD does not fail, our salvation will NOT COME TO NAUGHT.
If left to our own devices, we could fall away.
But, God does not leave it up to us because his Holy Spirit works in us to keep us faithful.
Scripture says Judas was known before that he would abandon Jesus. He was chosen for that, not to be saved. He was never truly of Jesus.
"Gal 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be condemned: Gal 2:12 for before that certain came from James, he ate with those of the nations; but when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcision; Gal 2:13 and the rest of the Jews also played the same dissembling part with him; so that even Barnabas was carried away too by their dissimulation. Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they do not walk straightforwardly, according to the truth of the glad tidings, I said to Peter before all, If *thou*, being a Jew, livest as the nations and not as the Jews, how dost thou compel the nations to Judaize?"
Well telder1, more proof God is real. Are you in BSF by chance? I was studying this very passage last night, and gee, here it is this morning.
Question .... how do you explain 'backlsliding' and distinguish that from 'sin'?
You are one of the very few to ask. In fact, you are the only one to DIRECTLY ask.
I chose it, because it is an effective way to show how 'warners' are destroyed by the world. I had not been introduced to the idea that this was a universal condition of fallen man, not in this way, until I read the book 'the March of Folly', B. Tuchman. That book was powerful, and I just picked a site that had a decent representation of the pic.
Since 9-11, and since my conversion, I have not worried about the consequences of being a warner. But indeed, I once NEVER wanted to be in laocoon's position... still don't really. But I don't fear the consequences anymore.
Why do you ask?
I am an evangelical and I like the father's definition of sanctification. once TRULY saved always saved in my book. just like he says, there is "saved" which gets us into the family of God, and then there is that process of becoming like Christ--sanctification.
I am human, God says he "knows my frame". he knows i will falter on that path of sanctification and i believe my ability to progress in becoming like Christ is what determines my job/rewards in heaven. Look at how many failures King David had, and yet God called David "a man after his own heart".
The parts of me that are like Christ remain in the millenium and afterlife, all the other failures/dross burn away. It is pretty obvious from what the bible says heaven (and the millenium) will be a wonderful active place and my ability to learn and grow in this life will earn me a particular job to do there. he promises that we will "rule and reign" so some of us will help the Lord govern or run his kingdom, some of us will help teach, some of us will do administration, some will do industry, etc. i honestly believe alot of the gifts and skills we learn in this life will be related to what we do in the millenium and/or heaven.
i love thinking about the afterlife. if you need a series to encourage someone who is dying or losing a loved one, i would highly recommend this:
http://www.mooreonlife.com/store/product.asp?SID=1&Product_ID=32
"If I Should Die Before I Wake...
With comfort for the grieving and encouragement for the fearful, this series speaks very gently about the mysteries of life's end here on earth. Dave provides words of hope for those left behind in light of the rejoicing for those gone to glory.
439 Is Death the End?
440 What Will Heaven be Like?
441 What about my Body?
442 What about Those I Leave in Grief?"
God doesn't break his own covenants--although Israel was unfaithful he is still going to fulfill his promise to them when we are gone. god wants ALL of us to be saved--he doesn't want it to be tricky--that is why Christianity is different from every other faith--if you have to work for it and can lose it, it ain't Christianity.
In the following passage note the 'he' and 'they' of the enemy: Nahum 1:9-15 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor(sayer of words.. parenthesis mine.) Thus saith the LORD; Though they be quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more. For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder. And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning theethat no more of thy name be sown, : out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile. Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.
The Word of God as gospel (the creating Word of God that births us into the pure Speech of God as new creations in Jesus Christ so that we desire the "..pure mental milk of the Word..", etc.. delivers us from an oppresor that we had formerly been deceived was the very tool we would find truth with--words and speech we thought we were gathering together as 'understanding' and 'knowledge'... Yet God is Truth as His Own Word.. and in the gospel is fulfilled: Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
I thank God that He has spoken this truth through me to you. May there be understanding of this from this day forward forever in the house of God and body of Christ.
Do you see what God has done through Jesus Christ/Word of God/the gospel to you and for you now? We are the firstfruits of that pure language--God Himself. He is His Word...
Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Zep 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
The fight between flesha nd Spirit of real, literal new creation is also seen in:
Jam 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. Jam 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Jam 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Jam 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Jam 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Hmm. I was just curious.....don't see many taglines linked to a long webpage like that.
telder1, speech is not a medium of knowledge transmission is what I think you are saying.
Your previous post has my head spinning a bit. But, I have been doing word studies like crazy since my conversion, so I think what you have written here is something I should comprehend.
Do you have additonal info, links, that sort of gives the abc's of what you are arguing?
"Sin is a craving inspired by temptation to do that which is not right in the eyes of God." What you are saying is that this comment is NOT true.... I think, right?
You can google 'speech of sin', 'Belial', etc... Below is an article I wrote for my own website two years ago. I've been meaning to update it. It was just an outline when I wrote it and it reads and looks like it. But it is more in-depth....
The Speech of Sin
simply pray for understanding, knowing that the very prayer itself is God speaking through you to Himself-- and wait on God: Gal 4:6-7 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
1 John 2:20,21 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Thank you telder1. I think I've got the beginning of 'getting it'.
1. Speech is not one, but two 'things'.
a.)Speech is creative, in Christ, living. This kind of speech has knowledge of 'death'.
b.)speech is sin, a kind of living death. This kind of speech has no knowledege whatsoever of 'life', the life we have as new creations in Christ.
c.) God created both kinds of speech, one to serve? the other ... where the sin of speech unknowingly serves the speech of life/creation.
2. The 'great deception' in the world today is that speech is one thing.
3. The second great deception is that we have free will - w/ that deception in place, the deception of 'one speech' takes root.
I'm on the right track, yes? ( and, fwiw, this seems like a pretty good, non-apolgetic, approach to defending the Calvinism/Know outlook ...)
speech of sin is living death, yes. It knows nothing of God nor can it know anything of God. It is its own speech, has it's own version of 'understanding and knowledge', etc.. that is alien to God. The second death is hell.
The 'great deception' came as the fall of man--when sin entered Eve as speech from the serpent (no questions, no lies until the serpent speaks..) and Adam gave ear to it for the love of Eve and because God , as Creating Word had said prior to the fall through Adam, "Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? "....Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
i.e. God created the fall and used the serpent and the speech of sin to accomplish what He had said.. God using evil for His overall good purpose..
The deception of fallen, non-born again man is that only one speech exists in total reality. Man is cut off from God until actual new birth in the Word of God.
the deception that we have free will IS that speech as a spirit of apostacy. The speech that speaks the free will lie fundamentally admits its own powerlessness(indeed, it makes a seeming virtue out of that very powerlessness to flatter the fallen heart...) by asking at all and trying to manipulate the heart into a supposed 'choice'. But God as His Word simply Speaks and we are born again. Why would any speech use a purpose of speech arguement to prove you have free will unless it had no power whatsoever to create anything? The free will lie says that the purpose of speech is the mere delivery of information with which you are supposed to 'make a choice'. It admits it has no power and tries to hide that powerlessness as flattery to you (you supposedly have Power to Choose and in the old heart of the flesh are flattered whenever you hear that lie.
God's creation of the speech of sin proves unlimited power and unrestrained use of it as God has created something that is absolutely alien to Himself.
Psalm 119:90,91 Thy faithfulness is from generation to generation: thou hast established the earth, and it standeth. By thine ordinances they stand this day; for all things are thy servants.
God is bigger than the free willers in the speech of sin portray Him to be. He can only be what they recognize in non-creating speech--in their minds. Therefore they will never know Him despite the speech of sin's constant claims of 'scholarship' through them. They are perfectly contained in the box of the living creature of the speech of sin until the elect among them hear the Word of God.
Listen to a free willer in the guise of being very pious and 'standing up for God' and 'being a better christian than Job' be spoken through by the speech of sin: (Eliphaz the Temnnite to Job) Job 15:9 What knowest thou that we know not? what understandest thou which is not in us?
But God says to Eliphaz: Job 42:7 And it came to pass after Jehovah had spoken these words to Job, that Jehovah said to Eliphaz the Temanite, Mine anger is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends; for ye have not spoken rightly of me, like my servant Job. Yet according to modern free willers, Eliphaz got it right.(!) Houston, we have a problem.
God took them all--all the wise ones in heaven-- in their own wisdom--their own speech. It's funny on a certain level. Fear God.
Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment; but they that seek Jehovah understand everything.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Have you ever tried to fill a empty gallon milk jug using a fire hose that is turned on full blast?
I'm the jug ... whew, I need to think a bit... and thanks for the reply!
Thank God, not me. I'm just your brother.
Mat 9:16,17 But no one puts a patch of new cloth on an old garment, for its filling up takes from the garment and a worse rent takes place. Nor do men put new wine into old skins, otherwise the skins burst and the wine is poured out, and the skins will be destroyed; but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
ping; don't know if the ping list would be interested in this topic, but I figured if you hadn't seen this article you would be...
Given that I just pinged the list to an article on the Orthodox, this might be appropriate and interesting.
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.
FReepmail me if you want on or off this list.
Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.