Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion?

The answer to the question is “yes,” but before explaining why this is so, the terms “regeneration” and “conversion” should be explained briefly.

Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8). The new birth is the work of God, so that all those who are born again are “born of the Spirit” (John 3:8 ESV here and henceforth). Or, as 1 Pet 1:3 says, it is God who “caused us to be born again to a living hope” (1 Pet 1:3). The means God uses to grant such new life is the gospel, for believers “have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God” (1 Pet 1:23; cf. Jas 1:18). Regeneration or being born again is a supernatural birth. Just as we cannot do anything to be born physically—it just happens to us!—so too we cannot do anything to cause our spiritual rebirth.

Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation. Paul describes the conversion of the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 1:9, “For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.” Sinners are converted when they repent of their sins and turn in faith to Jesus Christ, trusting in him for the forgiveness of their sins on the Day of Judgment.

Paul argues that unbelievers “are dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1; cf. 2:5). They are under the dominion of the world, the flesh, and the devil (Eph 2:2-3). Every one is born into the world as a son or daughter of Adam (Rom 5:12-19). Therefore, all people enter into this world as slaves of sin (Rom 6:6, 17, 20). Their wills are in bondage to evil, and hence they have no inclination or desire to do what is right or to turn to Jesus Christ. God, however, because of his amazing grace has “made us alive together with Christ” (Eph 2:5). This is Paul’s way of saying that God has regenerated his people (cf. Tit 3:5). He has breathed life into us where there was none previously, and the result of this new life is faith, for faith too is “the gift of God” (Eph 2:8).

Several texts from 1 John demonstrate that regeneration precedes faith. The texts are as follows: “If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him” (1 John 2:29). “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7). “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him” (1 John 5:1).

We can make two observations from these texts. First, in every instance the verb “born” (gennaô) is in the perfect tense, denoting an action that precedes the human actions of practicing righteousness, avoiding sin, loving, or believing.

Second, no evangelical would say that before we are born again we must practice righteousness, for such a view would teach works-righteousness. Nor would we say that first we avoid sinning, and then are born of God, for such a view would suggest that human works cause us to be born of God. Nor would we say that first we show great love for God, and then he causes us to be born again. No, it is clear that practicing righteousness, avoiding sin, and loving are all the consequences or results of the new birth. But if this is the case, then we must interpret 1 John 5:1 in the same way, for the structure of the verse is the same as we find in the texts about practicing righteousness (1 John 2:29), avoiding sin (1 John 3:9), and loving God (1 John 4:7). It follows, then, that 1 John 5:1 teaches that first God grants us new life and then we believe Jesus is the Christ.

We see the same truth in Acts 16:14. First God opens Lydia’s heart and the consequence is that she pays heed to and believes in the message proclaimed by Paul. Similarly, no one can come to Jesus in faith unless God has worked in his heart to draw him to faith in Christ (John 6:44). But all those whom the Father has drawn or given to the Son will most certainly put their faith in Jesus (John 6:37).

God regenerates us and then we believe, and hence regeneration precedes our conversion. Therefore, we give all the glory to God for our conversion, for our turning to him is entirely a work of his grace.

Dr. Schreiner is a Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Southern Seminary. Before 1997, he served 11 years on the faculty at Bethel Theological Seminary. He also taught New Testament at Azusa Pacific University. Dr. Schreiner, a Pauline scholar, is the author or editor of the following books: Romans in the Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament; Interpreting the Pauline Letters; The Law and Its Fulfillment: A Pauline Theology of Law; The Grace of God, The Bondage of the Will (a two-volume set which he co-edited with Bruce A. Ware); Women in the Church: A Fresh Analysis of 1 Timothy 2:9-15; The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance; and Paul Apostle of God's Glory in Christ: A Pauline Theology.

"The unbeliever chooses not to obey, because that is his nature, and the believer chooses to obey, because that is his nature. Ok. So let's move on."

We might as well move on. It doesn't seem like you can understand this simple concept of becoming a new creature in Christ.

"So if Christians have a new nature and the new nature causes them to obey God, then it would seem logical that they could not (with their new nature) disobey God, because that would then be contrary to their new nature, would it not?"

Wrong!

"If we say we do not sin that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

Even most Arminians believe that you are a new creature in Christ and that old things have passed away. No one on either the Calvinist or Arminian side that I know of believes you can't disobey God as a new creature. It's simply now you desire to serve and please God. When you don't please God you feel "creepy". (non-theologian term)

How would you define being "new creature".

No one on either the Calvinist or Arminian side that I know of believes you can't disobey God as a new creature. It's simply now you desire to serve and please God.

Ok lets get the terminology correct. Now if you are a new creature in Christ your nature is changed and whereas before you were wholly incapable of even desiring to please God, you are now made capable of desiring to please God even though often you do not?

So if, in my heart, I truly desire to please God, then would it be safe to assume that I have been regenerated and I am at this moment a new Creature in Christ?

So, do you (as a Christian) ever choose to disobey God?

It is part of the nature of every man (this side of glory) to disobey God.

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom. 7:14-25)

Paul was not a perfectionist. Neither was John:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

"So if, in my heart, I truly desire to please God, then would it be safe to assume that I have been regenerated and I am at this moment a new Creature in Christ?"

No. Lots of people try to please God. I think you must truly respond like Peter:

So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life." John 6:67-68

When you come to a realization there IS nowhere else to turn but to God and nothing else matters, then you know you've been born again.

No. Lots of people try to please God. I think you must truly respond like Peter:

So having a desire to please God does not mean you have been regenerated? I thought you said that until you have been regenerated you can't obey God or you can't desire to obey God .

Now it appears to mean something else. Are you now saying that it is actually possible to obey God or to desire to Obey God and still be unregnerate?

Based on your response, it would then appear that the unregnerate could actually truly desire to please God, even consiously choose to obey God but then when they actually reach the point described in John 6:67-68; when they realize that there really is nowhere else to turn, when they surrender to the spirit that calls them, that they would THEN become regnerate or born again?

Yeah, that sounds right. Thanks.

If, in my heart, -

"The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” Jer 17:9

"I truly desire to please God, - "

“and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom 8:8

"then would it be safe to assume that I have been regenerated and I am at this moment a new Creature in Christ?”

"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test?”2 Cor 13:5

You are to test yourself to see if you are in the faith. To give you a little better understanding of the things to look for and not to look for I have posted the following article. Examine Your Faith

Yes, if that is how the NT defines regeneration. But it doesn't. You are hearing a warpped interpretation that salvation is faith + repentence. It isn't

I didn't say that salvation is faith + repentence, I offered that as a definition for conversion. It seems that it would be fruitful if you would define your terminology since it appears we are both using words that convey a different concept to each of us.

Regeneration preceeds conversion. This was the historical perspective of the church and this is true orthodoxy.

I have no argument with you here. Where we diverge is in your attempt to place a time lag between these two actions.

My conviction is that regeneration is synonymous with the new birth. It logically follows the internal call in the Ordo Salutis, which suzyjaruki was kind enough to post earlier. Your scenario concerning Abraham, to my way of thinking, attempts to make the internal call a post-regenerative activity. I would reiterate that this view produces a born-again unbeliever.

To further clarify my perspective, I would define "salvation" as the entire process from election to glorification, ergo, the term "Ordo Salutis". This is a logical progression and is not intended to be a temporal timeline. Wouldn't you agree? There may be a time lag involved for certain portions of the Ordo Salutis such as the time between the outward call and the inward call, sanctification and glorification, but not between regeneration and conversion and the Ordo Salutis does not force any temporal relationship.

Consider an evangelistic rally during which many come forward, raise a hand, sign a card, etc. Some may even go to church, pray, witness, as a response to that event. Some go on to produce fruit. But some, as the Parable of the Seeds teaches, fall away. Shall we term their "decision for Christ" regeneration? I would think not. Yet this is what your perspective on Abraham would suggest. Abraham in Gen. 12 responds to God much like the one responding at the rally, yet it is in Gen. 15 where we are told Abraham believes God. It is in this chapter that the inward call coupled with regeneration produces the faithful response of Abraham.

”I didn't say that salvation is faith + repentence, I offered that as a definition for conversion.”

My apologies. I see your difference.

To further clarify my perspective, I would define "salvation" as the entire process from election to glorification, ergo, the term "Ordo Salutis". This is a logical progression and is not intended to be a temporal timeline. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I do believe “salvation” is a logical progression and not a temporal timeline as you have offered. The Biblical examples of Abraham (and Cornelius for that matter) are rare glimpses where this logical progression "stretches itself out" in scripture. To us it is viewed as a temporal causation but shouldn’t be construed this way. To God it is a logical progression. It’s my personal belief the two events, one in the Old Testament and one in the New Testament, are meant to show there is no difference in the logical process by which God redeems His elect.

Implying that Abraham was somehow, in time, redeemed in Chapter 12 and justified in Chapter 15 is incorrect and does sound like double salvation. This is not what I meant although I can now see how you’ve construed this view and I appreciate the correction. As you have suggested this is a logical progression of a single act of God. Abraham was not “saved” in Chapter 12 and “saved” again in Chapter 15. These chapters only reflect the logical progression of Abraham’s election to glorification experience assuming election is referring to his predestination and glorification is his resurrection. (If I’m using those terms right.)

I continue to stand by my assertion these events do in fact illustrate regeneration preceding conversion. I will confess since this thread started I have done a lot of reading from various theologians as to what constitute “regeneration” and many people use the term differently often within the same article adding to the confusion. From the Biblical examples of Abraham, Cornelius and others there was a point in time when God appeared, in whatever form, and they followed His commands. This to me is regeneration and to follow God must require faith. But as we see from these examples confession followed later (I know temporal again). However, you’re correct that this should be viewed as one event as election, regeneration, confession, justification, glorification and should not be viewed temporally but logically. (Hope I didn’t leave any “ions” out.)

You are to test yourself to see if you are in the faith. To give you a little better understanding of the things to look for and not to look for I have posted the following article. Examine Your Faith

Lets just say that I do a self examination and I pass most, but not all the tests. Should I STRIVE to make sure that I pass all the tests of saving faith? Or should I just assume that I don't have saving faith and that if I don't have it, I'm just a hopeless reprobate.

If I have to actually try to acheive all the earmarks of a saving faith (as defined by MacArthur) then should I assume that I am not saved at all?

If saving faith is wholly the work of God outside of my own efforts, then if I were saved, if I were this new creature in Christ, then shouldn't all those signs immediately and naturally follow without any effort on my own behalf?

Nag, nag, nag.

If you're trying to lead me down some path to say HOW DO YOU REALLY KNOW you're a Christian it's not going to work. God gives us each that quiet assurance for those who really are interested in getting to know God through His word and prayer. I knew when I became a Christian and I'm still confident after 30+ years and changing my theological position that He is my Great Shephred who will lead me home. And, trust me, it hasn't been easy for God all these years.

Most Christians who are reasonably grounded in the word and prayer understand this. Ireaneus stated that even barbarians who came to know God would know heresy just by hearing it and would plug their ears and run the other way. That's how confident he was at the power of God's Spirit.

If you feel that you need to work for your salvation you may want to reconsider. That is where you're heading with this conversation. Look at your question OBJECTIVELY:

"...then if I were saved, if I were this new creature in Christ, then shouldn't all those signs immediately and naturally follow without any effort on my own behalf?"

You are denying becoming a "new creature in Christ" contrary to scripture and advocating working for your salvation. Neither a Calvinist or OSAS Arminian would advocate such a position. It is not grounded in sound biblical evidence. Quite frankly I never thought that I would hear you say we don't become new creatures in Christ.

You are denying becoming a "new creature in Christ" contrary to scripture and advocating working for your salvation.

Oh Contraire. I was merely commenting on MacArthur's objective/subjective test for saving faith, which appears to me to be a works based system for confirming your salvation. (as opposed to a faith based confirmation).

Neither a Calvinist or OSAS Arminian would advocate such a position.

There is no such thing as an OSAS Arminian. The doctrine of falling from grace is essential to Arminianism.

Quite frankly I never thought that I would hear you say we don't become new creatures in Christ.

I never said that. Again I was pointing to MacArthur's test. If that is the test of saving faith, then all of the signs should be present immediately upon regeneration. Since they are not, that cannot possibly be the test. The test is whether we have confirmation in our hearts that Christ is in us. The outward confirmation will follow as God works on us.

BTW, the question is not whether we become new creatures in Christ, but when.

"There is no such thing as an OSAS Arminian. The doctrine of falling from grace is essential to Arminianism."

Anyone who is a synergist is an Arminian in my book and there's plenty of them who believe in OSAS such as the Southern Baptist among others. Only the "left-winger" Arminians believe you can fall from grace (which, BTW, I would agree with you is pure Arminian).

HD-"You are denying becoming a "new creature in Christ"...advocating working for your salvation."

PM-"I was merely commenting on MacArthur's objective/subjective test for saving faith, which appears to me to be a works based system for confirming your salvation. (as opposed to a faith based confirmation)."

It's easy to cast stones but in fairness to you the problem I have with MacArthur's list is there is precious little scripture reference. The thing I liked about it was it was a list of HOW to examine yourself. There are many cults who feel they have Christ in them. I would be interested in YOUR list of how you determine "Christ is in us".

It's rather a hoot to call MacArthur's self-examination a work-based system. If you truly believe you can lose your salvation then you got to work pretty hard to maintain it.

And now it's not a surprise to me that you would deny becoming a "new creature" since my next logical question is, "if you've become a new creature how can you return to an "old" creature again?" How could you lose your salvation? Of course this line of thinking denies a plethora of scripture but, hey, what does that matter?

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