Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Hermann the Cherusker

You know, this is the same argument used by Martin Luther in his attempt to return to what he believed was a more primitive rite. The first thing he did was dump the Offertory. He hated the concept of liturgical sacrifice.

Your claim that there wasn't an Offertory the first thousand years, moreover, is pointless. First of all, we don't know this. The only proof for what you claim is the fragment by Justin Martyr--and there is no evidence that liturgy was typical. On the other hand, there's loads and loads of proof the liturgy was intended from the outset as a sacrifice. Not only this, but it is also evident that the Church saw a need to spell things out more fully as the ages wore on and as the actual experience of the Crucifixion of Christ became a dimmer and dimmer memory. There is no reason at all to accept that the more primitive rite is somehow superior to what had evolved under the aegis of the Holy Spirit.

Besides, it's known that the sacrificial structure of the Mass appeared early in the Church and had been patterned after the Jewish sacrifices of the Temple--which obviously antedated even Justin Martyr. This structure would have included an Offertory (oblation), a Consecration (immolation), and a Communion (consummation). What is most important about a proper Offertory is that it sets the stage for what follows and makes clear what's happening--a propitiatory sacrifice of a Victim, Jesus, offered to the Father in expiation for our sins.

The Novus Ordo, on the other hand, only offers bread and wine to the Father in a before-meal blessing, and says nothing whatsoever about propitiation. In fact, it does just the opposite. It offers the bread which will become "the Bread of life" for us and then the wine which will become "our spiritual drink." In other words--the focus is primarily on ourselves, not on the Victim offered to the Father.


607 posted on 07/18/2004 7:48:31 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 591 | View Replies ]


To: ultima ratio
The Novus Ordo, on the other hand, only offers bread and wine to the Father in a before-meal blessing, and says nothing whatsoever about propitiation. In fact, it does just the opposite. It offers the bread which will become "the Bread of life" for us and then the wine which will become "our spiritual drink." In other words--the focus is primarily on ourselves, not on the Victim offered to the Father.

ultima, but what about the Prayer over the Gifts? Isn't that part of the Offertory too? I can cite quite a few texts from those prayers which express propitiation. For instance:

Propitius, Domine, quaesumus, haec dona sanctifica, et, hostiae spiritalis oblatione suscepta, nosmetipsos tibi perfice munus aeternum. (18th Sunday in Ordinary Time)
Ecclesiae tuae, Domine, munera placatus assume,
quae et misericors offerenda tribuisti,
et in nostrae salutis potenter efficis transire mysterium. (19th Sunday in Ordinary Time)
Benedictionem nobis, Domine, conferat salutarem
sacra semper oblatio,
ut, quod agit mysterio, virtute perficiat. (22nd Sunday in Ordinary Time)
Concede nobis, misericors Deus,
ut haec nostra oblatio tibi sit accepta,
et per ea nobis fons omnis benedictionis aperiatur. (26th Sunday in Ordinary Time)
Sacrificiis praesentibus, Domine,
quaesumus, intende placatus,
ut quod passionis Filii tui mysterio gerimus,
pio consequamur affectu. (32nd Sunday in Ordinary Time)
Hostiam tibi placationis offerimus, Domine,
suppliciter deprecantes,
ut, Deiparae virginis beatique Ioseph interveniente suffragio,
familias nostras in tua gratia firmiter et pace constituas. (Holy Family)
"We offer to thee this sacrifice of appeasement". Sounds propitiatory to me!
614 posted on 07/18/2004 8:35:23 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 607 | View Replies ]

To: ultima ratio
You know, this is the same argument used by Martin Luther in his attempt to return to what he believed was a more primitive rite. The first thing he did was dump the Offertory. He hated the concept of liturgical sacrifice.

What is "this"? Are you implying I agree with Luther or hate the concept of sacrifice? Where do you get this from?

Your claim that there wasn't an Offertory the first thousand years, moreover, is pointless.

No its not. You get all worked up about the prayers of the Offertory being changed, and yet the very prayers you are getting worked up about were not in the Roman Mass for over 1000 years.

First of all, we don't know this. The only proof for what you claim is the fragment by Justin Martyr--and there is no evidence that liturgy was typical.

Huh? Just go look at the Gregorian Missal. No offertory other than what I outlined - the procession, chant, and secret. All those prayers that you are getting worked up about are much later additions, probably from around the time of Innocent III or IV. gbcdoj has already pointed out how other medieval Missals failed to have any significant offertory as in the Tridentine Missal - like the Dominican. Of course we know it.

On the other hand, there's loads and loads of proof the liturgy was intended from the outset as a sacrifice.

No one is debating this. Why are you bringing it up? Can't you stick to topical replies?

What is most important about a proper Offertory is that it sets the stage for what follows and makes clear what's happening--a propitiatory sacrifice of a Victim, Jesus, offered to the Father in expiation for our sins.

Exactly. The prayers used within it are not important if the concept is present, which it obviously is in any Catholic Mass.

The Novus Ordo, on the other hand, only offers bread and wine to the Father in a before-meal blessing, and says nothing whatsoever about propitiation. In fact, it does just the opposite. It offers the bread which will become "the Bread of life" for us and then the wine which will become "our spiritual drink." In other words--the focus is primarily on ourselves, not on the Victim offered to the Father.

Let me know when you find the propitiary prayers in the Gregorian Missal. Perhaps it was an invalid/illicit sacrilege too, just like you claim the Novus Ordo is?

622 posted on 07/18/2004 9:21:31 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 607 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson