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To: ultima ratio
You know, this is the same argument used by Martin Luther in his attempt to return to what he believed was a more primitive rite. The first thing he did was dump the Offertory. He hated the concept of liturgical sacrifice.

What is "this"? Are you implying I agree with Luther or hate the concept of sacrifice? Where do you get this from?

Your claim that there wasn't an Offertory the first thousand years, moreover, is pointless.

No its not. You get all worked up about the prayers of the Offertory being changed, and yet the very prayers you are getting worked up about were not in the Roman Mass for over 1000 years.

First of all, we don't know this. The only proof for what you claim is the fragment by Justin Martyr--and there is no evidence that liturgy was typical.

Huh? Just go look at the Gregorian Missal. No offertory other than what I outlined - the procession, chant, and secret. All those prayers that you are getting worked up about are much later additions, probably from around the time of Innocent III or IV. gbcdoj has already pointed out how other medieval Missals failed to have any significant offertory as in the Tridentine Missal - like the Dominican. Of course we know it.

On the other hand, there's loads and loads of proof the liturgy was intended from the outset as a sacrifice.

No one is debating this. Why are you bringing it up? Can't you stick to topical replies?

What is most important about a proper Offertory is that it sets the stage for what follows and makes clear what's happening--a propitiatory sacrifice of a Victim, Jesus, offered to the Father in expiation for our sins.

Exactly. The prayers used within it are not important if the concept is present, which it obviously is in any Catholic Mass.

The Novus Ordo, on the other hand, only offers bread and wine to the Father in a before-meal blessing, and says nothing whatsoever about propitiation. In fact, it does just the opposite. It offers the bread which will become "the Bread of life" for us and then the wine which will become "our spiritual drink." In other words--the focus is primarily on ourselves, not on the Victim offered to the Father.

Let me know when you find the propitiary prayers in the Gregorian Missal. Perhaps it was an invalid/illicit sacrilege too, just like you claim the Novus Ordo is?

622 posted on 07/18/2004 9:21:31 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

No, YOU look again at the Gregorian Missal. The Secret WAS the Offertory. It was said silently up until about the fourteenth century. The earliest versions did exactly what later Offertory prayers do--ask God to receive the sacrifice we offer, etc. I've also taken note of the Dominican rite--and there is indeed an Offertory, strikingly different from what you find in the Novus Ordo--which is a mere prayer of thanksgiving before a meal and which focuses on the benefits to US of what will become the "bread of life" and "our spiritual drink"--and which nowhere mentions the Propitiatory Sacrifice of the Son to the Father in expiation for our sins. The whole concept of sacrifice is radically different in the Novus Ordo, with the vicarious satisfaction of Christ implicitly rejected.


629 posted on 07/18/2004 9:50:15 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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