Replies

I never said he said it was invalid. But Ratzinger does say it is contrary to Trent--and he has criticized sharply the versus populi.

I cite Ratzinger because people like yourself who have supported the conciliar popes out of a false sense of "obedience" are impressed by such citations. For myself, they are unnecessary. Anybody who's been exposed to the ancient Mass and compares it to the Novus Ordo, would recognize at once that the latter fudges on the sacrificial elements, ignoring entirely the dogma of Propitiation and thereby offending against the Father and the Son. It also offends by turning its back on the Father to face instead the congregation, and by making much of the virtual presence of Christ in the people while ignoring the Real Presence of Christ on the altar. The so-called "sacrifice" you talk about is the usual modernist trick of re-defining established terms and making them mean what modernists wish them to mean. To the modernist, the sacrifice of the Novus Ordo is one of praise and thanksgiving, a celebration of the people's salvation, not a sacrifice of true Propitiation for sins. As such it is an abomination. How can you wonder at the bad fruits that have flowed from it?

By the way, traditionalists like myself are not schismatics. If you continue to use this term, I no longer will exchange posts with you. By now it's pretty clear you do this to insult and not to discuss disagreements reasonably. I have made it clear why this term has been falsely applied. People who mean well respect this. You do not.

By the way, traditionalists like myself are not schismatics. If you continue to use this term, I no longer will exchange posts with you.

Nope, again the twist and turn.

Looking for allied with loyal traditionalists, who follow the Pope but may not agree with him. You persist in falsely painting my position as being blindly devoted to the Pope, and putting a wedge between me and other loyal members of the Church.

Traditionalists are not schismatic. I am a traditionalist, I think there is a lot far afield of what the Church intended to do going on everywhere. I don't like it and so do a lot of people here. A lot of people who are not in schism, and while they disagree with the Pope, follow his lawful authority.

My logic is, you are in the SSPX, and that is a schismatic organization. People attached to the SSPX are in schism and this is confirmed in writing by the Pope. It wasn't just for the illicit installation, and you know it.

My objection is to your position of saying the Novus Ordo is invalid, or insufficient which is the same thing, or is causing the ruin of Souls. Ratzinger correctly, IMHO, said that the Novus Ordo is poorly implemented, and is open for abuses of those who want to pick and choose what to follow, like many modernists have done, and like what the SSPX does.

Do what you like. You don't really respond to me except with another twisted bit of theology you read out of an SSPX pamphlet.

Your words drip with disdain for Catholicism, which is expressed in both the Novus Ordo, and the Tridentine Mass. It is also expressed in the Mozarabic rite, the Divine Liturgy, and other valid rites. No it is obvious you are outside the Church, not just from your unfortunate association with the SSPX, but because of what you hold and publicly announce. I have said before, we excommunicate ourselves.

would recognize at once that the latter fudges on the sacrificial elements, ignoring entirely the dogma of Propitiation and thereby offending against the Father and the Son

Well, ultima, let's compare. What is the essential difference which makes the Dominican Rite perfectly fine, whereas the 1970 offertory is to be condemned? I assume you refer to the offertory, as the canons of 1970 express the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

Dominican Rite
P. Dominus vobiscum.
S. Et cum spiritu tuo.
P. Oremus.
P. Quid retribuam Domino pro omnibus quae retribuit mihi?
P. Calicem salutaris accipiam et nomen Domini invocabo.
P. Suscipe sancta Trinitas hanc oblationem, quam tibi offero in memoriam passionis Domini nostri Jesu Christi: et praesta, ut in conspectu tuo tibi placens ascendat, et meam et omnium fidelium salutem operetur aeternam.
P: Lavabo inter innocentes manus meas, et circumdabo altare tuum Domine: ut audiam vocem laudis, et enarrem universa mirabilia tua. Domine dilexi decorem domus tuae, et locum habitationis gloriae tuae.
P: In spiritu humilitatis, et in animo contrito, suscipiamur Domine a te: et sic fiat sacrificium nostrum, ut a te suscipiatur hodie, et placeat tibi Domine Deus.
P: Orate fratres, ut meum ac vestrum pariter in conspectu Domini sit acceptum sacrificium.
P: Domine exaudi orationem meam: et clamor meus ad te veniat.

1970 Missal
P: Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, quia de tua largitate accepimus panem, quem tibi offerimus, fructum terrae et operis manuum hominum: ex quo nobis fiet panis vitae.
S: Benedictus Deus in saecula.
P: Per huius aquae et vini mysterium eius efficiamur divinitatis consortes, qui humanitatis nostrae fieri dignatus est particeps.
P: Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, quia de tua largitate accepimus vinum, quod tibi offerimus, Fructum vitis et operis manuum hominum, ex quo nobis fiet potus spiritalis.
S: Benedictus Deus in sacula.
P: In spiritu humilitatis et in animo contrito suscipiamur a te, Domine; et sic fiat sacrificium nostrum in conspectu tuo hodie, ut placeat tibi, Domine Deus.
P: Lava me, Domine, ab iniquitate mea, et a peccato meo munda me.
P: Orate, fratres: ut meum ac vestrum sacrificium acceptabile fiat apud Deum Patrem omnipotem.
S: Suscipiat Dominus sacrificium de manibus tuis ad laudem et gloriam nominis sui, ad utilitatem quoque nostram totius que Ecclesiae suae sanctae.

The 1970 Missal has the "In spiritu humilitatis" and the "Orate fratres", which both express the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Admittedly, there is no prayer as exact as the "Suscipe sancta", but this is made up for by the Canon which clearly shows that the "sacrifice" referred to is that of Christ.

To the modernist, the sacrifice of the Novus Ordo is one of praise and thanksgiving, a celebration of the people's salvation, not a sacrifice of true Propitiation for sins. As such it is an abomination. How can you wonder at the bad fruits that have flowed from it?

To the Modernist, the sacrifice of the Tridentine Mass is also one of only praise and thanksgiving. This is because Modernists don't accept the clear words of the Mass given to us by the church - not because of a defect in the Mass. The fact remains that no Protestant could in good conscience say the Canon of the Novus Ordo:

Memores igitur, Domine, eiusdem Filii tui salutiferae passionis necnon mirabilis resurrectionis et ascensionis in caelum, sed et praestolantes alterum eius adventum, offerimus tibi, gratias referentes, hoc sacrificium vivum et sanctum.
Respice, quaesumus, in oblationem Ecclesiae tuae et, agnoscens Hostiam, cuius voluisti immolatione placari, concede, ut qui Corpore et Sanguine Filii tui reficimur, Spiritu eius Sancto repleti, unum corpus et unus spiritus inveniamur in Christo. (EP III)

UR: People who "respect" or even agree with your contortions of reality on Ecclesia Dei's declarations that SSPX is a schism and that Marcel and the Econe 4 were excommunicated reject the words of the pope whose authority you lack. They come in various categories: SSPX schismatics; SSPX excommunicatees; dupes of SSPX; people poorly catechized; non-Catholics; the gullible; people who are ever hearing from their internal voices the words of Pasternak's fictional KGB General Yevgraf Zhivago: "Don't you believe? Don't you WANT to believe????"

Also, I am jealous. Dominick has been arguing with you for much less time than I but he gets his posts ignored by you! In the spirit of the otherwise saintly late Bishop Castro de Mayer: Hey, whaddabout me?????

UR, every single day you show a complete and assiduous attachment to SSPX. Under the judgment rubrics of Can. 915, you are a schismatic.