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Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza
Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

Posted on 07/15/2004 6:17:56 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Catholics exhibit fidelity to the Tradition of Holy Mother Church in many ways. Each of us has a distinctive, unrepeatable immortal soul that has personal characteristics of its own not shared by anyone else. Not even identical twins are the same in every respect. This plurality of souls in the Mystical Bride of Christ is reflected in the many different communities of men and women religious that have developed over the Church’s history. Each community has its own charism and mission. Ideally, each community of men and women religious should be totally faithful to everything contained in the Deposit of Faith and expressed and protected in the authentic Tradition of the Church. The means of expressing this fidelity, however, will vary from community to community.

What is true of communities of men and women religious is true also of us all, including our priests. Some priests have the patience of Saint Francis de Sales or Saint John Bosco, meek and mild, able to handle the rough seas that beset Holy Mother Church and/or themselves personally with perfect equanimity. Other priests have had the bluntness of St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio, mincing no words in their sermons about the necessity of rooting out sin and the possibility of going to Hell for all eternity. Both St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio were devoted to their role as an alter Christus in the confessional, using that hospital of Divine Mercy to administer the infinite merits of Our Lord’s Most Precious Blood to bring sacramental absolution to those to whom they had preached in blunt terms.

In addition to fidelity, though, there are different ways of expressing courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings. Some Catholics stood up quite directly to the unjust and illicit dictates of the English Parliament, which had been passed at the urging of King Henry VIII, at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England. Others kept their silence for as long as was possible, as was the case with Saint Thomas More, who discharged his mind publicly only after he had been found guilty on the basis of perjured testimony of denying the supremacy of the king as the head of the Church in England. Some priests in the Elizabethan period, such as St. Edmund Campion, almost dared officials to arrest them as they went to different locales to offer Holy Mass or as they took groups to the Tower of London. Other priests went quietly from house to house to offer the Traditional Mass underground as both the civil and ecclesiastical authorities in England used every sort of pressure imaginable to convince holdout “Romans” to go over to Protestantism and worship in the precusor liturgy of our own Novus Ordo Missae. Still other newly ordained priests came over from France, knowing that they might be able to offer only one Mass in England before they were arrested and executed.

The same thing occurred in France 255 years after the arrest and execution of Saints John Fisher and Thomas More. Some priests simply stood up to the agents of the French Revolution. Others, such as Blessed Father William Chaminade, donned disguises as they went from place to place, much as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro did in Mexico prior to his execution at the hands of the Masonic revolutionaries in Mexico on November 23, 1927. Ignatius Cardinal Kung, then the Bishop of Shanghai, China, was hauled before a dog-track stadium in his see city in 1956 before thousands of spectators. The Red Chinese authorities expected him to denounce the pope and thus to save himself from arrest. The brave bishop exclaimed the same thing as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro, “Long live Christ the King,” and was hauled off to spend over thirty years in prison before being released. Oh, yes, there are so many ways for priests to demonstrate their fidelity and courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings.

Well, many bishops and priests who are faithful to the fullness of the Church’s authentic Tradition have been subjected to a unspeakable form of persecution in the past thirty-five to forty years: treachery from within the highest quarters of the Church herself. Men who have held fast to that which was believed always, everywhere and by everyone prior for over 1,900 years found themselves termed as “disobedient,” “schismatic,” “heretical,” and “disloyal” for their resisting novelties that bore no resemblance to Catholicism and a great deal of resemblance to the very things that were fomented by Martin Luther and John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, things for which Catholics half a millennium ago shed their blood rather than accept. Many priests who have tried to remain faithful to Tradition within the framework of a diocesan or archdiocesan structure have been sent to psychiatric hospitals or penalized by being removed from their pastorates or by being denied pastorates altogether. Others, though, have faced more severe penalties.

Angelus Press, which is run by the Society of Saint Pius X, put out a book earlier this year, Priest, Where is Thy Mass? Mass, Where is Thy Priest?, which discussed the stories of seventeen priests who had decided to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass and to never again offer the Novus Ordo Missae. One of those priests is my good friend, Father Stephen Zigrang, who offered the Traditional Latin Mass in his [now] former parish of Saint Andrew Church in Channelview, Texas, on June 28-29, 2003, telling his parishioners that he would never again offer the new Mass.

As I reported extensively at this time last year, Father Zigrang was placed on a sixty day leave-of-absence by the Bishop of Galveston-Houston, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, and told to seek psychological counseling, preferably from Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Father Zigrang took his two month leave of absence, making a retreat at Saint Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, Minnesota, in early August of last year, returning to the Houston area to take up residence in the Society’s Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson, Texas. Bishop Fiorenza met with Father Zigrang in early September, seeming at the time to let him stay for a year with the Society while the diocese continued to pay his health insurance premiums. Within days of that early September meeting, however, Fiorenza was threatening to suspend Father Zigrang by the beginning of October if he did not vacate Queen of Angels and return to a diocesan assignment.

October of 2003 came and went. Father Zigrang heard no word from Bishop Fiorenza or the chancery office until he received the following letter, dated Jun 10, 2004:

Dear Father Zigrang:

Once more I appeal to you to cease your association with the Society of St. Pius X and return to your responsibilities as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston

Your continued association with a schismatic group which has severed communion with the Holy Father is confusing and a scandal to many of Christ’s faithful. You are well aware that without appropriate jurisdiction the marriages witnessed and confessions heard by the priests of the St. Society of St. Paul X are invalid and people are being lead to believe otherwise. You are also aware that the Holy See has asked the faithful not to attend Masses celebrated in the Chapels of the Society of St. Pius X.

I plead with you to return by July 1, 2004, to the presbyterate of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston and receive a priestly assignment from me. This letter serves as a penal precept (c. 1319) and is a final canonical warning (c. 1347.1). If I do not hear from you by June 30, 2004, I will impose a just penalty for disobeying a legitimate precept (c. 1371.2). The just penalty may include suspension (c. 133.1), nn 1-2: prohibition of all acts of the power of orders and governance.

I offer this final warning after consultation with the Holy See and will proceed to impose a penalty if you persist in disobedience to a legitimate precept. It is my fervent hope and constant prayer that you not remain out of union with the Holy Father.

Fraternally in Christ,

Joseph A. Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend R. Troy Gately, Vice Chancellor

Overlooking Bishop Fiorenza’s John Kerry-like gaffe in terming the Society of Saint Pius X the “St. Society of St. Paul X,” the letter reproduced above makes the erroneous assertion that the Society of Saint Pius X is in schism and that they are not in communion with the Holy Father. A series of articles in The Remnant has dealt with this very issue at great length. Fiorenza’s contentions that the marriages witnessed and the confessions heard by the Society of Saint Pius X are invalid also flies in the face of the fact that the Holy See “regularized” the Society of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos, Brazil, without demanding the convalidation of the marriages their priests had witnesses nor asking that confessions be re-heard. The glaring inconsistency of the canonical rhetoric of Vatican functionaries and their actual practices continues to be lost on Bishop Fiorenza.

Father Zigrang did not respond to Bishop Fiorenza’s June 10 letter. He received another letter, dated July 2, 2004, the contents of which are so explosive as to contain implications for the state of the Church far beyond the case of Father Zigrang and far beyond the boundaries of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston:

Dear Father Zigrang:

With great sadness I inform you that, effective immediately, you are suspended from the celebration of all sacraments, the exercise of governance and all rights attached to the office of pastor (Canon 1333.1, nn 1-2-3).

This action is taken after appropriate canonical warnings (canon 1347) and failure to obey my specific directive that you cease the affiliation with the schismatic Society of St. Pius X and accept an assignment to serve as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Canon 1371.2).

I want to repeat what I have said to you in person and in the written canonical warnings, that I prayerfully urge you to not break communion with the Holy Father and cease to be associated with the schism which rejects the liciety of the Novus Ordo Mass, often affirmed by Pope John Paul II. This schism also calls into question the teachings of the Second Vatican Council regarding ecumenism and the enduring validity of the Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel.

Your return to full union with the Church and to the acceptance of an assignment to priestly ministry in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston will be joyfully received as an answer to prayer. May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to renew the promise of obedience you made on the day of your ordination.

Fraternally in Christ,

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend Monsignor Frank H. Rossi Chancellor

cc: His Eminence, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Commissio Ecclesia Dei

Bishop Fiorenza’s July 2, 2004, letter is riddled with errors.

First, The Society of Saint Pius X does not reject the liciety of the Novus Ordo Missae. Its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, criticized the nature of the Novus Ordo and pointed out its inherent harm. That is far different from saying that the Novus Ordo is always and in all instances invalid. Is Bishop Fiorenza claiming that any criticism of the Novus Ordo and efforts to demonstrate how it is a radical departure from Tradition are schismatic acts? Is Father Romano Thommasi, for example, to be taken to task for writing scholarly articles, based on the very minutes of the Consilium, about how Archbishop Annibale Bugnini lied about the true origin of the some constituent elements of the Novus Ordo?

Second, the Society is not, as noted above, in schism, at least not as that phrase was defined by the First Vatican Council. The Society recognizes that the See of Peter is occupied at present by Pope John Paul II. Its priests pray for the Holy Father and for the local bishop in the Canon of the Mass. The Society can be said to be disobedient to the Holy Father’s unjust edicts and commands. The Society of Saint Pius X is not in schism.

Third, Bishop Fiorenza seems to be stating that ecumenism is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church from which no Catholic may legitimately dissent. If this is his contention, it is he who is grave error. Ecumenism is a pastoral novelty that was specifically condemned by every Pope prior to 1958. Pope Pius XI did so with particular eloquence in Mortalium Animos in 1928. Novelties that are not consonant with the authentic Tradition of the Church bind no one under penalty of sin, no less binds a priest under penalty of canonical suspension. A rejection of ecumenism constitutes in no way a schismatic act.

Fourth, Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the “Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel” is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superceded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday at the moment Our Lord had breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention, made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year, that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, Saint Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jews? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?

Fifth, Bishop Fiorenza has failed repeatedly to take into account Father Zigrang’s aboslute rights under Quo Primum to offer the Immemorial Mass of Tradition without any episcopal approval:

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.

We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force–notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemoial prescription–except, however, if of more than two hundred years’ standing. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission., statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is apparently the case that Bishop Fiorenza received a “green light,” if you will, to act against Father Zigrang from Dario Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, who is both the Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and the President of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, to whom a copy of the July 2, 2004, suspension letter was sent. Father Zigrang surmises that Bishop Fiorenza brought up the issue of his case during the bishops’ ad limina apostolorum visit in Rome recently. Father believes that Cardinal Hoyos wants to send a signal to priests who might be tempted to follow his lead that Rome will let bishops crack down on them without mercy and without so much as an acknowledgment that Quo Primum actually means what it says. Whether or not the specific “schismatic” acts Father Zigrang is alleged to have committed by being associated with the Society of Saint Pius X at Queen of Angels Church in Dickinson, Texas, were outlined to Cardinal Hoyos by Bishop Fiorenza remains to be seen.

Naturally, the grounds on which Bishop Fiorenza suspended Father Zigrang are beyond the sublime. As my dear wife Sharon noted, “Doesn’t Bishop Fiorenza have a better canon lawyer on his staff than the one who advised him on the grounds of suspending Father Zigrang.” Indeed.

The very fact that Fiorenza could make these incredible claims and believes that he has a good chance of prevailing in Rome speaks volumes about the state of the Church in her human elements at present. Will Rome let the bishops govern unjustly and make erroneous assertions about “schism” as well as heretical claims (that a priest must accept that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant and that ecumenism is a matter of de fide doctrine) with its full assent and approval? Will Rome countenance the same sort of misuse of power by local bishops upon traditional priests in the Twenty-first Century that was visited upon “Romans” by the civil state and the Anglican “church” in England from 1534 to 1729? The answers to these questions are probably self-evident. Putting them down in black and white, though, might help priests who are looking to Rome for some canonical protection for the Traditional Latin Mass to come to realize that they wait in vain for help from the Holy See, where the Vicar of Christ occupies himself at present with the writing of a book about existentialism!

There will be further updates on this matter as events warrant. Father Zigrang is weighing his options as to how to respond to the allegations contained in Bishop Fiorenza’s letter of suspension, understanding that the answers provided by the Holy See will have implications of obviously tremendous gravity. Given the intellectual dishonesty that exists in Rome at present, Father Zigrang’s case may only be decided on the technical grounds of “obedience” to his bishop, ignoring all of the other issues, including the rights of all priests under Quo Primum offer the Traditional Latin Mass without approval and their rights to never be forced to offer Holy Mass according to any other form.

To force Rome to act on what it might otherwise avoid, perhaps it might be wise for someone to bring a canonical denunciation of Bishop Fiorenza for his contentions about ecumenism and the “enduring validity” of the Mosaic Covenant, spelling out in chapter and verse how these things have been condemned in the history of the Church. Then again, Fiorenza could “defend” himself by simply pointing to the Pope himself, which is precisely why this matter has such grave implications. This matter is certain to be explored in great detail in the weeks and months ahead by competent canonists and by theologians who understand the authentic Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Father Zigrang noted the following in an e-mail to me dated July 14, 2004:

I examined canon 1371.2 (the canon that the Bishop says warrants my suspension), checking a good commentary, the disobedience of an Ordinary's legitimate precept may warrant a just penalty but not weighty enough to warrant a censure (e.g. suspension). I think this point may have been missed by the Bishop's hired canon lawyer, when the Bishop was weighing his options about what to do with one of his wayward priests. As I said to you before, the Bishop has a history of not suspending priests, even those who commit crimes beyond mere disobedience. Although lately I've been told he recently suspended a priest who attempted marriage with one of his parishioners. This was done about the time my suspension was in the works.

Our Lady, Queen of the Angels, pray for Father Zigrang.

Our Lady, Help of Christians, pray for all priests in Father Zigrang’s situation so that they will be aided by their seeking refuge in you in their time of persecution and trial.


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To: Land of the Irish
What is the New Evangelization?
The new evangelization has nothing in common with what various publications have insinuated when speaking of restoration, or when advancing the accusation of proselytism, or when unilaterally or tendentiously calling for pluralism and tolerance. A careful reading of the Council's decree Dignitatis Humanae on religious freedom can help to clear up these problems, and also to allay the fears that some are attempting to stir up, perhaps with the aim of depriving the Church of its courage and enthusiasm in taking up the mission of evangelization. The mission of evangelization is an essential part of the Church. The Second Vatican Council made this point in a colorful way by affirming that "the Church...by her nature is missionary" (Ad Gentes 2).

561 posted on 07/18/2004 10:14:10 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: ninenot

Jesus put it this way: He spoke of things, saying a good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bears rotten fruit. And he spoke of people: by their fruits you would know them. But he meant both--people and their institutions.

If the conciliar Church were good, then after forty plus years it should have borne some good fruit. But, in fact, the signs of decay are everywhere. The Novus Ordo itself is one of the fruits of Vatican II. Many of its bishops and priests have been caught up in unprecedented scandals--and polls show that Catholics in generally are morally indistinguishable from their secular counterparts. Doctrinally they are virtually indistinguishable from Protestants. After thirty plus years of Novus Ordo Masses, we should expect better results.

If spiritual leaders were true prophets, they would have produced some spiritually good fruit by now. Yet they don't. Read the newspapers, study the statistics. I don't see how you can quibble about this.


562 posted on 07/18/2004 10:16:56 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: gbcdoj

I agree with Dr. Drolesky, and thus disagree with you. That "rock" you refer to was chipped out of the Altar over St. Peter's grave, in St. Peter's Basilica. John Paul II is physically giving away the Church, in the name of false ecumenism.

What's you excuse/explanation for the Assisi I and II sacrileges? You did not address those in your reply.


563 posted on 07/18/2004 10:18:51 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ultima ratio
Get the whole thing...

Even Cardinal Ratzinger has attributed the turn of fortune in the Church to this:
I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy, which at times is actually being conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: as though in the liturgy it did not matter any more whether God exists and whether He speaks to us and listens to us.

Clearly the Cardinal also is speaking about the lack of Faith on the part of the liturgists. Ratzinger has made it clear, the abuses disgust him, and in part, the Novus Ordo is to blame in so far as the implementation is lacking. He never claims it is an invalid or incomplete Mass, quite the opposite.

First and formost, there can't be any depth of prayer without a truly efficacious liturgy that authentically worships the Father, rather than celebrates ourselves.

It was addressed before that the Mass still worships God in the Trinity, and how the Mass is still a Sacrifice.

I thought Ratzinger was not Catholic enough for you schismatics!
564 posted on 07/18/2004 10:18:56 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Land of the Irish
I stand corrected. Your "rock", as you called it, was actually a marble fragment of the tomb of St. Peter in Rome.
565 posted on 07/18/2004 10:40:15 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
John Paul II is physically giving away the Church, in the name of false ecumenism.

It wasn't in the name of false ecumenism - no one has shown even that this one incident with the Hindu priests is known to the Pope.

What's you excuse/explanation for the Assisi I and II sacrileges?

They don't affect the church's doctrine on evangelization - they were to promote "world peace". The Holy Office in 1949 allowed saying the Our Father with Protestants as a prayer for Christian unity - does that mean they meant Protestants weren't to be evangelized?

566 posted on 07/18/2004 11:01:13 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: gbcdoj
no one has shown even that this one incident with the Hindu priests is known to the Pope.

I sent a letter of protest, via e-mail, to every Vatican e-address I could find. All of those e-mails remain unanswered to this day.

567 posted on 07/18/2004 11:14:18 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
I sent a letter of protest, via e-mail, to every Vatican e-address I could find. All of those e-mails remain unanswered to this day.

That's evidence that the Pope read your mail?

568 posted on 07/18/2004 11:16:02 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: Dominick

I never said he said it was invalid. But Ratzinger does say it is contrary to Trent--and he has criticized sharply the versus populi.

I cite Ratzinger because people like yourself who have supported the conciliar popes out of a false sense of "obedience" are impressed by such citations. For myself, they are unnecessary. Anybody who's been exposed to the ancient Mass and compares it to the Novus Ordo, would recognize at once that the latter fudges on the sacrificial elements, ignoring entirely the dogma of Propitiation and thereby offending against the Father and the Son. It also offends by turning its back on the Father to face instead the congregation, and by making much of the virtual presence of Christ in the people while ignoring the Real Presence of Christ on the altar. The so-called "sacrifice" you talk about is the usual modernist trick of re-defining established terms and making them mean what modernists wish them to mean. To the modernist, the sacrifice of the Novus Ordo is one of praise and thanksgiving, a celebration of the people's salvation, not a sacrifice of true Propitiation for sins. As such it is an abomination. How can you wonder at the bad fruits that have flowed from it?

By the way, traditionalists like myself are not schismatics. If you continue to use this term, I no longer will exchange posts with you. By now it's pretty clear you do this to insult and not to discuss disagreements reasonably. I have made it clear why this term has been falsely applied. People who mean well respect this. You do not.


569 posted on 07/18/2004 11:25:28 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: gbcdoj

I do indeed attribute the Hindu priests worshiping at a Fatima altar to John Paul II and no other. It is a direct extension of Assisi I and II. The Bishop of Fatima did no more than what the Pope did at Assisi. For you to deny the connection is ridiculous.


570 posted on 07/18/2004 11:29:32 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: gbcdoj
they were to promote "world peace".

"world peace"? Is that the primary responsibility of a Holy Pontiff?

I thought Pope John Paul II defers to the wicked UN, on matters of "world peace", while that same agency aggressively pushes for the mass murder of unborn children.

Is not the "salvation of souls", a primary responsibility of a Pope?

What good is a world of peaceful pagans?

571 posted on 07/18/2004 11:37:54 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ultima ratio; gbcdoj
I do indeed attribute the Hindu priests worshiping at a Fatima altar to John Paul II and no other. It is a direct extension of Assisi I and II. The Bishop of Fatima did no more than what the Pope did at Assisi. For you to deny the connection is ridiculous.

It goes way further than that, because it's not a matter of them merely following JPII's lead at Assisi.

The debacle with the Hindus at such a place as Fatima could never possibly have occured without the full approval of the pontiff. This was not some isolated incident that happened due to a few wayard Bishops.

572 posted on 07/18/2004 11:49:46 AM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: ultima ratio
By the way, traditionalists like myself are not schismatics. If you continue to use this term, I no longer will exchange posts with you.

Nope, again the twist and turn.

Looking for allied with loyal traditionalists, who follow the Pope but may not agree with him. You persist in falsely painting my position as being blindly devoted to the Pope, and putting a wedge between me and other loyal members of the Church.

Traditionalists are not schismatic. I am a traditionalist, I think there is a lot far afield of what the Church intended to do going on everywhere. I don't like it and so do a lot of people here. A lot of people who are not in schism, and while they disagree with the Pope, follow his lawful authority.

My logic is, you are in the SSPX, and that is a schismatic organization. People attached to the SSPX are in schism and this is confirmed in writing by the Pope. It wasn't just for the illicit installation, and you know it.

My objection is to your position of saying the Novus Ordo is invalid, or insufficient which is the same thing, or is causing the ruin of Souls. Ratzinger correctly, IMHO, said that the Novus Ordo is poorly implemented, and is open for abuses of those who want to pick and choose what to follow, like many modernists have done, and like what the SSPX does.

Do what you like. You don't really respond to me except with another twisted bit of theology you read out of an SSPX pamphlet.

Your words drip with disdain for Catholicism, which is expressed in both the Novus Ordo, and the Tridentine Mass. It is also expressed in the Mozarabic rite, the Divine Liturgy, and other valid rites. No it is obvious you are outside the Church, not just from your unfortunate association with the SSPX, but because of what you hold and publicly announce. I have said before, we excommunicate ourselves.
573 posted on 07/18/2004 11:49:54 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: ultima ratio
would recognize at once that the latter fudges on the sacrificial elements, ignoring entirely the dogma of Propitiation and thereby offending against the Father and the Son

Well, ultima, let's compare. What is the essential difference which makes the Dominican Rite perfectly fine, whereas the 1970 offertory is to be condemned? I assume you refer to the offertory, as the canons of 1970 express the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

Dominican Rite

P.  Dominus vobiscum. 
S.  Et cum spiritu tuo.
P.  Oremus.

P.  Quid retribuam Domino pro omnibus quae retribuit mihi?

P.  Calicem salutaris accipiam et nomen Domini invocabo.

P.  Suscipe sancta Trinitas hanc oblationem, quam tibi offero in memoriam passionis Domini nostri Jesu Christi: et praesta, ut in conspectu tuo tibi placens ascendat, et meam et omnium fidelium salutem operetur aeternam.

P: Lavabo inter innocentes manus meas, et circumdabo altare tuum Domine: ut audiam vocem laudis, et enarrem universa mirabilia tua.  Domine dilexi decorem domus tuae, et locum habitationis gloriae tuae.

P: In spiritu humilitatis, et in animo contrito, suscipiamur Domine a te: et sic fiat sacrificium nostrum, ut a te suscipiatur hodie, et placeat tibi Domine Deus.

P: Orate fratres, ut meum ac vestrum pariter in conspectu Domini sit acceptum sacrificium.

P: Domine exaudi orationem meam: et clamor meus ad te veniat.

1970 Missal

P: Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, quia de tua largitate accepimus panem, quem tibi offerimus, fructum terrae et operis manuum hominum: ex quo nobis fiet panis vitae.
S: Benedictus Deus in saecula.

P: Per huius aquae et vini mysterium eius efficiamur divinitatis consortes, qui humanitatis nostrae fieri dignatus est particeps.

P: Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, quia de tua largitate accepimus vinum, quod tibi offerimus, Fructum vitis et operis manuum hominum, ex quo nobis fiet potus spiritalis.
S: Benedictus Deus in sacula.

P: In spiritu humilitatis et in animo contrito suscipiamur a te, Domine; et sic fiat sacrificium nostrum in conspectu tuo hodie, ut placeat tibi, Domine Deus.

P: Lava me, Domine, ab iniquitate mea, et a peccato meo munda me.

P: Orate, fratres: ut meum ac vestrum sacrificium acceptabile fiat apud Deum Patrem omnipotem.
S: Suscipiat Dominus sacrificium de manibus tuis ad laudem et gloriam nominis sui, ad utilitatem quoque nostram totius que Ecclesiae suae sanctae.

The 1970 Missal has the "In spiritu humilitatis" and the "Orate fratres", which both express the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Admittedly, there is no prayer as exact as the "Suscipe sancta", but this is made up for by the Canon which clearly shows that the "sacrifice" referred to is that of Christ.

To the modernist, the sacrifice of the Novus Ordo is one of praise and thanksgiving, a celebration of the people's salvation, not a sacrifice of true Propitiation for sins. As such it is an abomination. How can you wonder at the bad fruits that have flowed from it?

To the Modernist, the sacrifice of the Tridentine Mass is also one of only praise and thanksgiving. This is because Modernists don't accept the clear words of the Mass given to us by the church - not because of a defect in the Mass. The fact remains that no Protestant could in good conscience say the Canon of the Novus Ordo:

Memores igitur, Domine, eiusdem Filii tui salutiferae passionis necnon mirabilis resurrectionis et ascensionis in caelum, sed et praestolantes alterum eius adventum, offerimus tibi, gratias referentes, hoc sacrificium vivum et sanctum.

Respice, quaesumus, in oblationem Ecclesiae tuae et, agnoscens Hostiam, cuius voluisti immolatione placari, concede, ut qui Corpore et Sanguine Filii tui reficimur, Spiritu eius Sancto repleti, unum corpus et unus spiritus inveniamur in Christo. (EP III)


574 posted on 07/18/2004 11:50:47 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: Land of the Irish
Is that the primary responsibility of a Holy Pontiff?

Beside the point. We're discussing how the Pope is supposedly opposed to all evangelization, and instead supports only "dialogue".

575 posted on 07/18/2004 11:54:50 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: gbcdoj
That's evidence that the Pope read your mail?

One of the many addresses was the Pope's:

john_paul_ii@vatican.va

Holy See divulges Pope´s email address

It was bounced back as undeliverable. I guess he doesn't want to hearabout the rampant apostasy anymore.

See no evil, hear no evil,...

576 posted on 07/18/2004 11:57:12 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
It was bounced back as undeliverable. I guess he doesn't want to hearabout the rampant apostasy anymore.

The Pope doesn't have time to read email. That was a special thing for his birthday - obviously the address was deleted once he had read a few mails.

577 posted on 07/18/2004 12:02:03 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: gbcdoj
Beside the point.

It's not beside the point; you're the one who brought up world peace as a pathetic defense of the Assisi sacrileges.

578 posted on 07/18/2004 12:06:48 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: gbcdoj
The Pope doesn't have time to read email.

He has time to write poetry and tinker with Our Lady's Rosary.

579 posted on 07/18/2004 12:09:20 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: gbcdoj

You actually prove my point by juxtaposing the two. The first is a true Offertory of a coming Immolation, mentioning the actual oblation in memory of the Passion of Christ (passionis Domini nostri Jesu Christi), the second is a mere blessing before a meal (fructum terrae et operis manuum hominum: ex quo nobis fiet panis vitae). In fact, the latter mentions no oblation and is no Offertory at all.

I rest my case.


580 posted on 07/18/2004 12:10:09 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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