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Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza
Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

Posted on 07/15/2004 6:17:56 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Catholics exhibit fidelity to the Tradition of Holy Mother Church in many ways. Each of us has a distinctive, unrepeatable immortal soul that has personal characteristics of its own not shared by anyone else. Not even identical twins are the same in every respect. This plurality of souls in the Mystical Bride of Christ is reflected in the many different communities of men and women religious that have developed over the Church’s history. Each community has its own charism and mission. Ideally, each community of men and women religious should be totally faithful to everything contained in the Deposit of Faith and expressed and protected in the authentic Tradition of the Church. The means of expressing this fidelity, however, will vary from community to community.

What is true of communities of men and women religious is true also of us all, including our priests. Some priests have the patience of Saint Francis de Sales or Saint John Bosco, meek and mild, able to handle the rough seas that beset Holy Mother Church and/or themselves personally with perfect equanimity. Other priests have had the bluntness of St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio, mincing no words in their sermons about the necessity of rooting out sin and the possibility of going to Hell for all eternity. Both St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio were devoted to their role as an alter Christus in the confessional, using that hospital of Divine Mercy to administer the infinite merits of Our Lord’s Most Precious Blood to bring sacramental absolution to those to whom they had preached in blunt terms.

In addition to fidelity, though, there are different ways of expressing courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings. Some Catholics stood up quite directly to the unjust and illicit dictates of the English Parliament, which had been passed at the urging of King Henry VIII, at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England. Others kept their silence for as long as was possible, as was the case with Saint Thomas More, who discharged his mind publicly only after he had been found guilty on the basis of perjured testimony of denying the supremacy of the king as the head of the Church in England. Some priests in the Elizabethan period, such as St. Edmund Campion, almost dared officials to arrest them as they went to different locales to offer Holy Mass or as they took groups to the Tower of London. Other priests went quietly from house to house to offer the Traditional Mass underground as both the civil and ecclesiastical authorities in England used every sort of pressure imaginable to convince holdout “Romans” to go over to Protestantism and worship in the precusor liturgy of our own Novus Ordo Missae. Still other newly ordained priests came over from France, knowing that they might be able to offer only one Mass in England before they were arrested and executed.

The same thing occurred in France 255 years after the arrest and execution of Saints John Fisher and Thomas More. Some priests simply stood up to the agents of the French Revolution. Others, such as Blessed Father William Chaminade, donned disguises as they went from place to place, much as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro did in Mexico prior to his execution at the hands of the Masonic revolutionaries in Mexico on November 23, 1927. Ignatius Cardinal Kung, then the Bishop of Shanghai, China, was hauled before a dog-track stadium in his see city in 1956 before thousands of spectators. The Red Chinese authorities expected him to denounce the pope and thus to save himself from arrest. The brave bishop exclaimed the same thing as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro, “Long live Christ the King,” and was hauled off to spend over thirty years in prison before being released. Oh, yes, there are so many ways for priests to demonstrate their fidelity and courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings.

Well, many bishops and priests who are faithful to the fullness of the Church’s authentic Tradition have been subjected to a unspeakable form of persecution in the past thirty-five to forty years: treachery from within the highest quarters of the Church herself. Men who have held fast to that which was believed always, everywhere and by everyone prior for over 1,900 years found themselves termed as “disobedient,” “schismatic,” “heretical,” and “disloyal” for their resisting novelties that bore no resemblance to Catholicism and a great deal of resemblance to the very things that were fomented by Martin Luther and John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, things for which Catholics half a millennium ago shed their blood rather than accept. Many priests who have tried to remain faithful to Tradition within the framework of a diocesan or archdiocesan structure have been sent to psychiatric hospitals or penalized by being removed from their pastorates or by being denied pastorates altogether. Others, though, have faced more severe penalties.

Angelus Press, which is run by the Society of Saint Pius X, put out a book earlier this year, Priest, Where is Thy Mass? Mass, Where is Thy Priest?, which discussed the stories of seventeen priests who had decided to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass and to never again offer the Novus Ordo Missae. One of those priests is my good friend, Father Stephen Zigrang, who offered the Traditional Latin Mass in his [now] former parish of Saint Andrew Church in Channelview, Texas, on June 28-29, 2003, telling his parishioners that he would never again offer the new Mass.

As I reported extensively at this time last year, Father Zigrang was placed on a sixty day leave-of-absence by the Bishop of Galveston-Houston, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, and told to seek psychological counseling, preferably from Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Father Zigrang took his two month leave of absence, making a retreat at Saint Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, Minnesota, in early August of last year, returning to the Houston area to take up residence in the Society’s Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson, Texas. Bishop Fiorenza met with Father Zigrang in early September, seeming at the time to let him stay for a year with the Society while the diocese continued to pay his health insurance premiums. Within days of that early September meeting, however, Fiorenza was threatening to suspend Father Zigrang by the beginning of October if he did not vacate Queen of Angels and return to a diocesan assignment.

October of 2003 came and went. Father Zigrang heard no word from Bishop Fiorenza or the chancery office until he received the following letter, dated Jun 10, 2004:

Dear Father Zigrang:

Once more I appeal to you to cease your association with the Society of St. Pius X and return to your responsibilities as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston

Your continued association with a schismatic group which has severed communion with the Holy Father is confusing and a scandal to many of Christ’s faithful. You are well aware that without appropriate jurisdiction the marriages witnessed and confessions heard by the priests of the St. Society of St. Paul X are invalid and people are being lead to believe otherwise. You are also aware that the Holy See has asked the faithful not to attend Masses celebrated in the Chapels of the Society of St. Pius X.

I plead with you to return by July 1, 2004, to the presbyterate of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston and receive a priestly assignment from me. This letter serves as a penal precept (c. 1319) and is a final canonical warning (c. 1347.1). If I do not hear from you by June 30, 2004, I will impose a just penalty for disobeying a legitimate precept (c. 1371.2). The just penalty may include suspension (c. 133.1), nn 1-2: prohibition of all acts of the power of orders and governance.

I offer this final warning after consultation with the Holy See and will proceed to impose a penalty if you persist in disobedience to a legitimate precept. It is my fervent hope and constant prayer that you not remain out of union with the Holy Father.

Fraternally in Christ,

Joseph A. Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend R. Troy Gately, Vice Chancellor

Overlooking Bishop Fiorenza’s John Kerry-like gaffe in terming the Society of Saint Pius X the “St. Society of St. Paul X,” the letter reproduced above makes the erroneous assertion that the Society of Saint Pius X is in schism and that they are not in communion with the Holy Father. A series of articles in The Remnant has dealt with this very issue at great length. Fiorenza’s contentions that the marriages witnessed and the confessions heard by the Society of Saint Pius X are invalid also flies in the face of the fact that the Holy See “regularized” the Society of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos, Brazil, without demanding the convalidation of the marriages their priests had witnesses nor asking that confessions be re-heard. The glaring inconsistency of the canonical rhetoric of Vatican functionaries and their actual practices continues to be lost on Bishop Fiorenza.

Father Zigrang did not respond to Bishop Fiorenza’s June 10 letter. He received another letter, dated July 2, 2004, the contents of which are so explosive as to contain implications for the state of the Church far beyond the case of Father Zigrang and far beyond the boundaries of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston:

Dear Father Zigrang:

With great sadness I inform you that, effective immediately, you are suspended from the celebration of all sacraments, the exercise of governance and all rights attached to the office of pastor (Canon 1333.1, nn 1-2-3).

This action is taken after appropriate canonical warnings (canon 1347) and failure to obey my specific directive that you cease the affiliation with the schismatic Society of St. Pius X and accept an assignment to serve as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Canon 1371.2).

I want to repeat what I have said to you in person and in the written canonical warnings, that I prayerfully urge you to not break communion with the Holy Father and cease to be associated with the schism which rejects the liciety of the Novus Ordo Mass, often affirmed by Pope John Paul II. This schism also calls into question the teachings of the Second Vatican Council regarding ecumenism and the enduring validity of the Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel.

Your return to full union with the Church and to the acceptance of an assignment to priestly ministry in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston will be joyfully received as an answer to prayer. May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to renew the promise of obedience you made on the day of your ordination.

Fraternally in Christ,

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend Monsignor Frank H. Rossi Chancellor

cc: His Eminence, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Commissio Ecclesia Dei

Bishop Fiorenza’s July 2, 2004, letter is riddled with errors.

First, The Society of Saint Pius X does not reject the liciety of the Novus Ordo Missae. Its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, criticized the nature of the Novus Ordo and pointed out its inherent harm. That is far different from saying that the Novus Ordo is always and in all instances invalid. Is Bishop Fiorenza claiming that any criticism of the Novus Ordo and efforts to demonstrate how it is a radical departure from Tradition are schismatic acts? Is Father Romano Thommasi, for example, to be taken to task for writing scholarly articles, based on the very minutes of the Consilium, about how Archbishop Annibale Bugnini lied about the true origin of the some constituent elements of the Novus Ordo?

Second, the Society is not, as noted above, in schism, at least not as that phrase was defined by the First Vatican Council. The Society recognizes that the See of Peter is occupied at present by Pope John Paul II. Its priests pray for the Holy Father and for the local bishop in the Canon of the Mass. The Society can be said to be disobedient to the Holy Father’s unjust edicts and commands. The Society of Saint Pius X is not in schism.

Third, Bishop Fiorenza seems to be stating that ecumenism is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church from which no Catholic may legitimately dissent. If this is his contention, it is he who is grave error. Ecumenism is a pastoral novelty that was specifically condemned by every Pope prior to 1958. Pope Pius XI did so with particular eloquence in Mortalium Animos in 1928. Novelties that are not consonant with the authentic Tradition of the Church bind no one under penalty of sin, no less binds a priest under penalty of canonical suspension. A rejection of ecumenism constitutes in no way a schismatic act.

Fourth, Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the “Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel” is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superceded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday at the moment Our Lord had breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention, made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year, that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, Saint Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jews? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?

Fifth, Bishop Fiorenza has failed repeatedly to take into account Father Zigrang’s aboslute rights under Quo Primum to offer the Immemorial Mass of Tradition without any episcopal approval:

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.

We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force–notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemoial prescription–except, however, if of more than two hundred years’ standing. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission., statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is apparently the case that Bishop Fiorenza received a “green light,” if you will, to act against Father Zigrang from Dario Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, who is both the Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and the President of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, to whom a copy of the July 2, 2004, suspension letter was sent. Father Zigrang surmises that Bishop Fiorenza brought up the issue of his case during the bishops’ ad limina apostolorum visit in Rome recently. Father believes that Cardinal Hoyos wants to send a signal to priests who might be tempted to follow his lead that Rome will let bishops crack down on them without mercy and without so much as an acknowledgment that Quo Primum actually means what it says. Whether or not the specific “schismatic” acts Father Zigrang is alleged to have committed by being associated with the Society of Saint Pius X at Queen of Angels Church in Dickinson, Texas, were outlined to Cardinal Hoyos by Bishop Fiorenza remains to be seen.

Naturally, the grounds on which Bishop Fiorenza suspended Father Zigrang are beyond the sublime. As my dear wife Sharon noted, “Doesn’t Bishop Fiorenza have a better canon lawyer on his staff than the one who advised him on the grounds of suspending Father Zigrang.” Indeed.

The very fact that Fiorenza could make these incredible claims and believes that he has a good chance of prevailing in Rome speaks volumes about the state of the Church in her human elements at present. Will Rome let the bishops govern unjustly and make erroneous assertions about “schism” as well as heretical claims (that a priest must accept that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant and that ecumenism is a matter of de fide doctrine) with its full assent and approval? Will Rome countenance the same sort of misuse of power by local bishops upon traditional priests in the Twenty-first Century that was visited upon “Romans” by the civil state and the Anglican “church” in England from 1534 to 1729? The answers to these questions are probably self-evident. Putting them down in black and white, though, might help priests who are looking to Rome for some canonical protection for the Traditional Latin Mass to come to realize that they wait in vain for help from the Holy See, where the Vicar of Christ occupies himself at present with the writing of a book about existentialism!

There will be further updates on this matter as events warrant. Father Zigrang is weighing his options as to how to respond to the allegations contained in Bishop Fiorenza’s letter of suspension, understanding that the answers provided by the Holy See will have implications of obviously tremendous gravity. Given the intellectual dishonesty that exists in Rome at present, Father Zigrang’s case may only be decided on the technical grounds of “obedience” to his bishop, ignoring all of the other issues, including the rights of all priests under Quo Primum offer the Traditional Latin Mass without approval and their rights to never be forced to offer Holy Mass according to any other form.

To force Rome to act on what it might otherwise avoid, perhaps it might be wise for someone to bring a canonical denunciation of Bishop Fiorenza for his contentions about ecumenism and the “enduring validity” of the Mosaic Covenant, spelling out in chapter and verse how these things have been condemned in the history of the Church. Then again, Fiorenza could “defend” himself by simply pointing to the Pope himself, which is precisely why this matter has such grave implications. This matter is certain to be explored in great detail in the weeks and months ahead by competent canonists and by theologians who understand the authentic Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Father Zigrang noted the following in an e-mail to me dated July 14, 2004:

I examined canon 1371.2 (the canon that the Bishop says warrants my suspension), checking a good commentary, the disobedience of an Ordinary's legitimate precept may warrant a just penalty but not weighty enough to warrant a censure (e.g. suspension). I think this point may have been missed by the Bishop's hired canon lawyer, when the Bishop was weighing his options about what to do with one of his wayward priests. As I said to you before, the Bishop has a history of not suspending priests, even those who commit crimes beyond mere disobedience. Although lately I've been told he recently suspended a priest who attempted marriage with one of his parishioners. This was done about the time my suspension was in the works.

Our Lady, Queen of the Angels, pray for Father Zigrang.

Our Lady, Help of Christians, pray for all priests in Father Zigrang’s situation so that they will be aided by their seeking refuge in you in their time of persecution and trial.


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To: ninenot; Land of the Irish; ultima ratio
That wouldn't be the Church of St Agnes in St Paul would it?

Yep.

As you know, the Catholic Church is passing through difficult times. Had we abided by the decisions and teachings of the II Vatican Council, we would today be in the golden age of "renewal." Instead, "crackpot" theologians and phony "experts" have taken over, and, speaking and acting in the name of a spurious "spirit of the Council," are throwing everything into chaos and confusion. And the end is not yet.

I have warned about this, predicted evil consequences. I was labeled as "old- fashioned," "behind the times," "a voice from the past," "reactionary," etc. I have not changed my mind. After two years of experimentation, I have only one more sentence to add: "By their fruits you shall know them." And what are some of these "fruits" today?

1) According to the reports of our American bishops, the number of converts to the Catholic Church in our country in 1966 was the lowest in fifteen years. Please note: the American bishops said this.

2) The liturgy in some of our churches is celebrated in such a noisy, irreverent, vulgar, hootenanny manner so as to be no longer worthy of the name "liturgy." Pope Paul calls it a "desanctification" of the liturgy. As a result, in some parishes many Catholics are abandoning the Sunday Mass and the reception of the sacraments.

3) Vocations to the religious and priestly life have fallen off to an all-time low. It is reliably reported that a large monastery in Minnesota has one candidate this fall for its order, whereas formerly, it would have 20 to 30. A large sisterhood reports four candidates this fall, whereas formerly it had 30 to 40. In former years Nazareth Hall used to receive over 100 boys into first year high school, whereas this year the number of registrants is 31. Certainly no one needs to know "higher math" to figure out what is going to happen in a few years if this trend continues.

4) But this is not all. Every religious order is losing a large number of professed nuns; Sisters are foolishly asking to be dispensed from their vows and are returning to the world. One order reports 30 such cases this summer, another 20, another 50. At this rate how long will it take for the whole order to disappear?

5) Does this mean that parishes will not be affected? Listen to this: Next year the neighboring diocese of St. Cloud is closing the higher grades in all parochial schools outside the city of St. Cloud for lack of Sisters and teachers. Already there is talk of beginning to close the lower grades. And elsewhere there is talk of closing some parishes for lack of priests. (Msgr. Rudolph Bandas, St. Agnes bulletin of August 20, 1967)


521 posted on 07/17/2004 5:01:06 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: ninenot; dubyaismypresident; Tantumergo; TotusTuus; ultima ratio
The S-S-P-X

Young priest, there's no need to feel down.
I said, young priest, when the rites are unsound.
Young priest, find a chapel in town
There's no need to be schis-ma-tic.

Young priest, there's a place you can go.
I said, young priest, when you're tired of the N.O.
They are straight there, and I'm sure you will find
The confessional has a long line.

Avoid the gay at the s-s-p-x.
Avoid the gay at the s-s-p-x.

522 posted on 07/17/2004 5:03:09 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej

Other than the fact that we're about 40 years out of sync with our respective parody base materials, I suspect this could be a good thing.

HOWsomeEver, aspiring papabile, you'll have to put aside those toys and learn a bunch of Chant. Fortunately, most Chant does not have rhyming verse, but it is in Latin.

In fact, one of the more monumental Chant lyrics (and tunes) is the "Adoro Te," written by Aquinas. Not only does it rhyme for several stanzas, it is also theologically perfectly sound.

It's hard for us moderns to get the GRAMMAR right, much less the theology, and in a furrin lingo, I say, theah..


523 posted on 07/17/2004 5:13:38 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: gbcdoj

"That's not a defect of the Novus Ordo"

It's part of the package--together with Communion in the hands, standing for Communion and cutting back on genuflections. Bottom line: the Mass has been de-sacralized effectively by the bishops. It walks like a new religion, it talks like a new religion--it must be a new religion. Pope doesn't seem to mind. Protestant, Catholic--what difference does it make?


524 posted on 07/17/2004 5:13:44 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
Pope doesn't seem to mind.

Of course he does.

525 posted on 07/17/2004 5:22:31 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: ninenot; Grey Ghost

Easy--because its fruits are rotten. If the Novus Ordo Mass were pleasing to Heaven, it would have borne much good fruit by now. But it doesn't--everything it touches is corrupted. By their fruits you will know them--


526 posted on 07/17/2004 5:22:52 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: gbcdoj
Gay Tridentine Mass

LOL! So you found the website of some flamer who appreciates the Tridentine Mass. Big deal.

527 posted on 07/17/2004 5:23:06 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: ninenot
Please post a cc on the FR boards.

What are you talking about? I was addressing your leader not his cabal of choir boys who can't speak for themselves.

528 posted on 07/17/2004 5:25:33 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: ninenot; Grey Ghost II; ultima ratio
St. Padre Pio:

In 1966, the Father General [of the Franciscans] came to Rome prior to the special Chapter on the Constitutions in order to ask Padre Pio for his prayers and benedictions. He met Padre Pio in the cloister. "Padre, I came to recommend to your prayers the special chapter for the new Constitutions..." He had scarcely gotten the words "special Chapter"..."new Constitutions" out of his mouth when Padre Pio made a violent gesture and cried out: "That is all nothing but destructive nonsense." "But Padre, after all, there is the younger generation to take into account...the youth evolve after their own fashion... there are new demands..." "The only thing missing is mind and heart, that's all, understanding and love." Then he proceeded to his cell, did a half-turn, and pointed his finger, saying: "We must not denature ourselves, we must not denature ourselves! At the Lord's judgment, Saint Francis will not recognize us as his sons!"

529 posted on 07/17/2004 6:02:33 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Grey Ghost II

Have you noticed that the leader, is now a leader of one. All the other elected officials of Tiny Tim's Clubhouse for Geldings have dropped their titles in their taglines.


530 posted on 07/17/2004 6:20:01 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ninenot

I agree there is a legitimate use of the term.
Having heard this pastor's sermons for years, to me it was sounding like Teilhard de Chardin's cosmic Christ.
He gave very wishy washy sermons for years except he was quick to defend homos and accuse anti-homos (Christmas sermon season homily)


531 posted on 07/17/2004 6:48:04 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
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To: drstevej

Good. Modern scansion, but good.


532 posted on 07/17/2004 7:13:41 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: narses

***scansion***

This engineer (undergraduate degree) had to look that one up.


533 posted on 07/17/2004 7:16:39 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: BlackElk
It is not just opinion, it is also an acquired but obvious matter of personal cultural taste and preference.

You obviously missed the entire point of my post which was that the traditional Catholic faith is NOT a matter of opinion. The things that separate traditional Catholics from the post-conciliar Church are not questions of opinion. They are matters of faith. It is one faith versus another faith. The traditional Catholic faith of 2000 years versus the "Church of Vatican II." These are not opinions, but solid realities.

At the Novus Ordo Mass, is the bread and wine transubstantiated into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

You asked this question on the previous thread that went to 500 posts, and I answered it there: It is my prudential judgement that there is no valid transubtantiation occurring at the vast majority of New Masses due to defects in matter, form or intention. We covered the "matter" question again on this thread, and it is a more widespread problem than some people realize. A priest like Fr. Zigrang would have the right intention, although one could never rely upon that for the vast majority of New Mass priests. But if he used the vernacular form of the consecration, he would be saying words that mean something different from the words which have been defined to be required for validity.

He would only offer a valid New Mass if he said the words in Latin, because the Latin words of consecration do not match the vernacular words. They are not a translation, they were lifted directly from the traditional Latin Mass. That is why they are preserved from heresy and are capable of confecting a valid sacrament. But recall that even saying the New Mass in Latin can get you kicked out of your parish, as happened just in the past year to another priest in Fr. Zigrang's home state of Texas.

534 posted on 07/17/2004 8:39:32 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: BlackElk
Does the Novus Ordo Mass convey to the participants in the pews the same graces as are conveyed by the Tridentine Mass.

No. Even that most rare of birds, the valid New Mass, is unable to convey the same graces as the traditional Latin Mass, because it does not convey the same reality. It is a "celebration of the Eucharist" rather than the "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass."

535 posted on 07/17/2004 8:41:34 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: drstevej
lol, thanks a lot
all the better I just happened to hear that song today
536 posted on 07/17/2004 9:01:43 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
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To: Maximilian; BlackElk; ninenot; gbcdoj; Dominick; ArrogantBustard
Does the Novus Ordo Mass convey to the participants in the pews the same graces as are conveyed by the Tridentine Mass.

Maximilian:  No. I am not going to dance here:  your answer is bull$hit Max.  

CHAPLET OF SAINT PATRICK

Prayer on the Medal:
The Apostle's Creed

On Each of the Twelve Green Beads:

Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and to the
Holy Sporit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and
ever show be, world without end. Amen.

Intention:

Through the intercession of St. Patrick, may God
Almighty strenghen one's faith, and grant the
grace of faith for others.

BREASTPLATE OF ST. PATRICK

Christ as a light,
Illumine and guide me!
Christ as a shield, o'ershadow and cover me!
Christ be under me! Christ be over me!
Christ be beside me, On the left hand and
right!
Christ be before me, behind me, about me;
Christ this day be within and without me!
(from Hymm Before Tara)

537 posted on 07/17/2004 9:26:54 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
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To: GirlShortstop
I am not going to dance here: your answer is bull$hit Max.

Your descent into vulgarity seems to have become a recurring theme on this thread. I detect some defensiveness. Where are all those graces you claim for the New Mass when you need them?

538 posted on 07/17/2004 9:39:32 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: ninenot; narses
I am not as educated on these matters as most of you.
It may be that according to one interpretation of a church law, its ok for a catholic bishop to merely witness a methodist bishop installation. Maybe I am totally worried about nothing. I can easily see that many orthodox catholics could make the distinctions necessary. i fear that most ordinary church going catholics would see this as indifferentism. Given all the differences between Methodist and Catholic, some hugely important that Brusk excommunicated many and is likely warning them they risk hell if they disobey, for example (Eucharist, morality),
a catholic bishops presence easily could suggest that either of these 2 religions are valid and if one doesn't like RC rules, ok to join the Methodists. At a minimum, it will validate many methodists that, look, their religion is equivalent because "we have Bishop B here and we know what a hardliner he is."

Truly, why would a bishop so clearly committed to Catholic principles waste his time in a Methodist ceremony, at the installation of his supposed equal?

Why would a Ph.D. witness or participate in a ceremony where he knows a fraudulent Ph.D. is conferred? Wouldn't he have better things to do? I don't know, maybe Brusk succumbed to a pressure we don't know about or he saw somehow a greater good coming out. hardly the worst thing, what he did, but i bet he'd drop dead before going to an sspx ordination.

Yes, bishops be civil, come together to pool resources for the poor and find common ground on social services, by all means. In civil affairs, ok treat them as equals, I can certainly understand that. end of rant.
539 posted on 07/17/2004 9:43:24 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
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To: Maximilian; ArrogantBustard; BlackElk; ninenot; gbcdoj; Dominick; sinkspur
Your descent into vulgarity seems to have become a recurring theme on this thread.

Well, once again Maximilian, you are WRONG.

I have no intention of apologizing to you for what I posted.
540 posted on 07/17/2004 10:25:41 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
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