Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza
Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

Posted on 07/15/2004 6:17:56 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Catholics exhibit fidelity to the Tradition of Holy Mother Church in many ways. Each of us has a distinctive, unrepeatable immortal soul that has personal characteristics of its own not shared by anyone else. Not even identical twins are the same in every respect. This plurality of souls in the Mystical Bride of Christ is reflected in the many different communities of men and women religious that have developed over the Church’s history. Each community has its own charism and mission. Ideally, each community of men and women religious should be totally faithful to everything contained in the Deposit of Faith and expressed and protected in the authentic Tradition of the Church. The means of expressing this fidelity, however, will vary from community to community.

What is true of communities of men and women religious is true also of us all, including our priests. Some priests have the patience of Saint Francis de Sales or Saint John Bosco, meek and mild, able to handle the rough seas that beset Holy Mother Church and/or themselves personally with perfect equanimity. Other priests have had the bluntness of St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio, mincing no words in their sermons about the necessity of rooting out sin and the possibility of going to Hell for all eternity. Both St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio were devoted to their role as an alter Christus in the confessional, using that hospital of Divine Mercy to administer the infinite merits of Our Lord’s Most Precious Blood to bring sacramental absolution to those to whom they had preached in blunt terms.

In addition to fidelity, though, there are different ways of expressing courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings. Some Catholics stood up quite directly to the unjust and illicit dictates of the English Parliament, which had been passed at the urging of King Henry VIII, at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England. Others kept their silence for as long as was possible, as was the case with Saint Thomas More, who discharged his mind publicly only after he had been found guilty on the basis of perjured testimony of denying the supremacy of the king as the head of the Church in England. Some priests in the Elizabethan period, such as St. Edmund Campion, almost dared officials to arrest them as they went to different locales to offer Holy Mass or as they took groups to the Tower of London. Other priests went quietly from house to house to offer the Traditional Mass underground as both the civil and ecclesiastical authorities in England used every sort of pressure imaginable to convince holdout “Romans” to go over to Protestantism and worship in the precusor liturgy of our own Novus Ordo Missae. Still other newly ordained priests came over from France, knowing that they might be able to offer only one Mass in England before they were arrested and executed.

The same thing occurred in France 255 years after the arrest and execution of Saints John Fisher and Thomas More. Some priests simply stood up to the agents of the French Revolution. Others, such as Blessed Father William Chaminade, donned disguises as they went from place to place, much as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro did in Mexico prior to his execution at the hands of the Masonic revolutionaries in Mexico on November 23, 1927. Ignatius Cardinal Kung, then the Bishop of Shanghai, China, was hauled before a dog-track stadium in his see city in 1956 before thousands of spectators. The Red Chinese authorities expected him to denounce the pope and thus to save himself from arrest. The brave bishop exclaimed the same thing as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro, “Long live Christ the King,” and was hauled off to spend over thirty years in prison before being released. Oh, yes, there are so many ways for priests to demonstrate their fidelity and courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings.

Well, many bishops and priests who are faithful to the fullness of the Church’s authentic Tradition have been subjected to a unspeakable form of persecution in the past thirty-five to forty years: treachery from within the highest quarters of the Church herself. Men who have held fast to that which was believed always, everywhere and by everyone prior for over 1,900 years found themselves termed as “disobedient,” “schismatic,” “heretical,” and “disloyal” for their resisting novelties that bore no resemblance to Catholicism and a great deal of resemblance to the very things that were fomented by Martin Luther and John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, things for which Catholics half a millennium ago shed their blood rather than accept. Many priests who have tried to remain faithful to Tradition within the framework of a diocesan or archdiocesan structure have been sent to psychiatric hospitals or penalized by being removed from their pastorates or by being denied pastorates altogether. Others, though, have faced more severe penalties.

Angelus Press, which is run by the Society of Saint Pius X, put out a book earlier this year, Priest, Where is Thy Mass? Mass, Where is Thy Priest?, which discussed the stories of seventeen priests who had decided to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass and to never again offer the Novus Ordo Missae. One of those priests is my good friend, Father Stephen Zigrang, who offered the Traditional Latin Mass in his [now] former parish of Saint Andrew Church in Channelview, Texas, on June 28-29, 2003, telling his parishioners that he would never again offer the new Mass.

As I reported extensively at this time last year, Father Zigrang was placed on a sixty day leave-of-absence by the Bishop of Galveston-Houston, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, and told to seek psychological counseling, preferably from Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Father Zigrang took his two month leave of absence, making a retreat at Saint Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, Minnesota, in early August of last year, returning to the Houston area to take up residence in the Society’s Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson, Texas. Bishop Fiorenza met with Father Zigrang in early September, seeming at the time to let him stay for a year with the Society while the diocese continued to pay his health insurance premiums. Within days of that early September meeting, however, Fiorenza was threatening to suspend Father Zigrang by the beginning of October if he did not vacate Queen of Angels and return to a diocesan assignment.

October of 2003 came and went. Father Zigrang heard no word from Bishop Fiorenza or the chancery office until he received the following letter, dated Jun 10, 2004:

Dear Father Zigrang:

Once more I appeal to you to cease your association with the Society of St. Pius X and return to your responsibilities as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston

Your continued association with a schismatic group which has severed communion with the Holy Father is confusing and a scandal to many of Christ’s faithful. You are well aware that without appropriate jurisdiction the marriages witnessed and confessions heard by the priests of the St. Society of St. Paul X are invalid and people are being lead to believe otherwise. You are also aware that the Holy See has asked the faithful not to attend Masses celebrated in the Chapels of the Society of St. Pius X.

I plead with you to return by July 1, 2004, to the presbyterate of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston and receive a priestly assignment from me. This letter serves as a penal precept (c. 1319) and is a final canonical warning (c. 1347.1). If I do not hear from you by June 30, 2004, I will impose a just penalty for disobeying a legitimate precept (c. 1371.2). The just penalty may include suspension (c. 133.1), nn 1-2: prohibition of all acts of the power of orders and governance.

I offer this final warning after consultation with the Holy See and will proceed to impose a penalty if you persist in disobedience to a legitimate precept. It is my fervent hope and constant prayer that you not remain out of union with the Holy Father.

Fraternally in Christ,

Joseph A. Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend R. Troy Gately, Vice Chancellor

Overlooking Bishop Fiorenza’s John Kerry-like gaffe in terming the Society of Saint Pius X the “St. Society of St. Paul X,” the letter reproduced above makes the erroneous assertion that the Society of Saint Pius X is in schism and that they are not in communion with the Holy Father. A series of articles in The Remnant has dealt with this very issue at great length. Fiorenza’s contentions that the marriages witnessed and the confessions heard by the Society of Saint Pius X are invalid also flies in the face of the fact that the Holy See “regularized” the Society of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos, Brazil, without demanding the convalidation of the marriages their priests had witnesses nor asking that confessions be re-heard. The glaring inconsistency of the canonical rhetoric of Vatican functionaries and their actual practices continues to be lost on Bishop Fiorenza.

Father Zigrang did not respond to Bishop Fiorenza’s June 10 letter. He received another letter, dated July 2, 2004, the contents of which are so explosive as to contain implications for the state of the Church far beyond the case of Father Zigrang and far beyond the boundaries of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston:

Dear Father Zigrang:

With great sadness I inform you that, effective immediately, you are suspended from the celebration of all sacraments, the exercise of governance and all rights attached to the office of pastor (Canon 1333.1, nn 1-2-3).

This action is taken after appropriate canonical warnings (canon 1347) and failure to obey my specific directive that you cease the affiliation with the schismatic Society of St. Pius X and accept an assignment to serve as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Canon 1371.2).

I want to repeat what I have said to you in person and in the written canonical warnings, that I prayerfully urge you to not break communion with the Holy Father and cease to be associated with the schism which rejects the liciety of the Novus Ordo Mass, often affirmed by Pope John Paul II. This schism also calls into question the teachings of the Second Vatican Council regarding ecumenism and the enduring validity of the Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel.

Your return to full union with the Church and to the acceptance of an assignment to priestly ministry in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston will be joyfully received as an answer to prayer. May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to renew the promise of obedience you made on the day of your ordination.

Fraternally in Christ,

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend Monsignor Frank H. Rossi Chancellor

cc: His Eminence, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Commissio Ecclesia Dei

Bishop Fiorenza’s July 2, 2004, letter is riddled with errors.

First, The Society of Saint Pius X does not reject the liciety of the Novus Ordo Missae. Its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, criticized the nature of the Novus Ordo and pointed out its inherent harm. That is far different from saying that the Novus Ordo is always and in all instances invalid. Is Bishop Fiorenza claiming that any criticism of the Novus Ordo and efforts to demonstrate how it is a radical departure from Tradition are schismatic acts? Is Father Romano Thommasi, for example, to be taken to task for writing scholarly articles, based on the very minutes of the Consilium, about how Archbishop Annibale Bugnini lied about the true origin of the some constituent elements of the Novus Ordo?

Second, the Society is not, as noted above, in schism, at least not as that phrase was defined by the First Vatican Council. The Society recognizes that the See of Peter is occupied at present by Pope John Paul II. Its priests pray for the Holy Father and for the local bishop in the Canon of the Mass. The Society can be said to be disobedient to the Holy Father’s unjust edicts and commands. The Society of Saint Pius X is not in schism.

Third, Bishop Fiorenza seems to be stating that ecumenism is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church from which no Catholic may legitimately dissent. If this is his contention, it is he who is grave error. Ecumenism is a pastoral novelty that was specifically condemned by every Pope prior to 1958. Pope Pius XI did so with particular eloquence in Mortalium Animos in 1928. Novelties that are not consonant with the authentic Tradition of the Church bind no one under penalty of sin, no less binds a priest under penalty of canonical suspension. A rejection of ecumenism constitutes in no way a schismatic act.

Fourth, Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the “Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel” is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superceded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday at the moment Our Lord had breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention, made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year, that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, Saint Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jews? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?

Fifth, Bishop Fiorenza has failed repeatedly to take into account Father Zigrang’s aboslute rights under Quo Primum to offer the Immemorial Mass of Tradition without any episcopal approval:

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.

We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force–notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemoial prescription–except, however, if of more than two hundred years’ standing. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission., statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is apparently the case that Bishop Fiorenza received a “green light,” if you will, to act against Father Zigrang from Dario Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, who is both the Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and the President of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, to whom a copy of the July 2, 2004, suspension letter was sent. Father Zigrang surmises that Bishop Fiorenza brought up the issue of his case during the bishops’ ad limina apostolorum visit in Rome recently. Father believes that Cardinal Hoyos wants to send a signal to priests who might be tempted to follow his lead that Rome will let bishops crack down on them without mercy and without so much as an acknowledgment that Quo Primum actually means what it says. Whether or not the specific “schismatic” acts Father Zigrang is alleged to have committed by being associated with the Society of Saint Pius X at Queen of Angels Church in Dickinson, Texas, were outlined to Cardinal Hoyos by Bishop Fiorenza remains to be seen.

Naturally, the grounds on which Bishop Fiorenza suspended Father Zigrang are beyond the sublime. As my dear wife Sharon noted, “Doesn’t Bishop Fiorenza have a better canon lawyer on his staff than the one who advised him on the grounds of suspending Father Zigrang.” Indeed.

The very fact that Fiorenza could make these incredible claims and believes that he has a good chance of prevailing in Rome speaks volumes about the state of the Church in her human elements at present. Will Rome let the bishops govern unjustly and make erroneous assertions about “schism” as well as heretical claims (that a priest must accept that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant and that ecumenism is a matter of de fide doctrine) with its full assent and approval? Will Rome countenance the same sort of misuse of power by local bishops upon traditional priests in the Twenty-first Century that was visited upon “Romans” by the civil state and the Anglican “church” in England from 1534 to 1729? The answers to these questions are probably self-evident. Putting them down in black and white, though, might help priests who are looking to Rome for some canonical protection for the Traditional Latin Mass to come to realize that they wait in vain for help from the Holy See, where the Vicar of Christ occupies himself at present with the writing of a book about existentialism!

There will be further updates on this matter as events warrant. Father Zigrang is weighing his options as to how to respond to the allegations contained in Bishop Fiorenza’s letter of suspension, understanding that the answers provided by the Holy See will have implications of obviously tremendous gravity. Given the intellectual dishonesty that exists in Rome at present, Father Zigrang’s case may only be decided on the technical grounds of “obedience” to his bishop, ignoring all of the other issues, including the rights of all priests under Quo Primum offer the Traditional Latin Mass without approval and their rights to never be forced to offer Holy Mass according to any other form.

To force Rome to act on what it might otherwise avoid, perhaps it might be wise for someone to bring a canonical denunciation of Bishop Fiorenza for his contentions about ecumenism and the “enduring validity” of the Mosaic Covenant, spelling out in chapter and verse how these things have been condemned in the history of the Church. Then again, Fiorenza could “defend” himself by simply pointing to the Pope himself, which is precisely why this matter has such grave implications. This matter is certain to be explored in great detail in the weeks and months ahead by competent canonists and by theologians who understand the authentic Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Father Zigrang noted the following in an e-mail to me dated July 14, 2004:

I examined canon 1371.2 (the canon that the Bishop says warrants my suspension), checking a good commentary, the disobedience of an Ordinary's legitimate precept may warrant a just penalty but not weighty enough to warrant a censure (e.g. suspension). I think this point may have been missed by the Bishop's hired canon lawyer, when the Bishop was weighing his options about what to do with one of his wayward priests. As I said to you before, the Bishop has a history of not suspending priests, even those who commit crimes beyond mere disobedience. Although lately I've been told he recently suspended a priest who attempted marriage with one of his parishioners. This was done about the time my suspension was in the works.

Our Lady, Queen of the Angels, pray for Father Zigrang.

Our Lady, Help of Christians, pray for all priests in Father Zigrang’s situation so that they will be aided by their seeking refuge in you in their time of persecution and trial.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; crisis
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 301-320321-340341-360 ... 901-902 next last
To: Land of the Irish

You have mail


321 posted on 07/16/2004 5:12:01 PM PDT by Tantumergo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 320 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST

People don't experience Colin Powell on a daily basis. But every Catholic in Church is experiencing Christ and his Church each time.

Therefore, their opinions of the existence of a crisis woudl seem weightier than their knowledge of Colin Powell.

Secondly, thinking more about this, one shoudl consider that the Arian Crisis was a crisis of faith, where people were rejecting the central doctrine of Christianity - the divinity of Jesus. Most everyone was aware of the crisis.

Our current crisis is a desire for a superior form of the Mass to be said more widely again, and an end to false ecumenism practiced by a small minority. Few seem aware of the problem's existence.

It just doesn't seem comparable.


322 posted on 07/16/2004 5:12:22 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 313 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker; gbcdoj; ninenot; Dominick; sandyeggo; NYer; St.Chuck; JohnnyZ; Barnacle
....to post these ponderous texts....

Gentlemen, the facts that support the TRUTH found in the Bride of Christ are fabulous; please do not curtail your valiant FR endeavors.  Pax et bonum!
323 posted on 07/16/2004 5:15:23 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 211 | View Replies]

To: Dominick
You wrote: You let the modernists, the real modernists, chase you out of the Churches.

As I have posted before, I am strictly NO, and have an orthodox NO priest. I doubt seriously I would avail myself of SSPX were it available. I don't even go to indult in my area. There are lots of bad judgments coming out of bishops and Vatican, we all agree. Some of them may be for reasons of blackmail. Seeing what orthodoxy prevails in sspx as opposed to most dioceses, I can't see why pope would really be against them. I believe sspx is among the Faith's strongest proponents and pope's best allies, though if he were to acknowledge this publicly,
Mahoney & Co would revolt and possibly consecrate bishops. Thus, Vatican has to pretend about their status. Before God we all stand, and to the best of my knowledge, admittedly limited, I can not condemn them for offering TLM and orthodox teaching for others, sorry and for reason above, I can not believe Vatican really condemns them. In fact, I am encouraged by their successes as I am those of orthodox NO bishops, say as in Richmond VA.



Vatican II was supposed to be an opening up, a toleration of different viewpoints and opinions where there are non-essentials, as opposed to the legalisms of the past. For the most part, those opposed to sspx here cite the letter of law constantly instead of looking at the big picture: the Faith needs to be preached and souls need to be saved--that's the bottom line, and I believe Our Lord doesn't mind sspx doing this if many NO bishops won't. In the spirit of V2, they should be allowed to freely operate, especially given the enormous predicament we are in. The Spirit of V2 opposes harsh canonical penalties meted out.

In theory, we oppose all errors. Then there is the pastoral and practical aspect to living. Some errors are worse then others, there are venial and mortal sins.

You said we "can't do anything from the outside." yet most acknowledge including Wanderer that indult would never be here without sspx. No one knows what would have happened had lefevbre did not do what he did. It's hard to believe though that sspx presence has not prodded restoration at least a little bit.

For their part sspx needs to accentuate the Faith positively and speak quietly but strongly about their reasons and not cast aspersions on NO properly celebrated.
It's not just about the mass, it's about seminary, sexual morality, false ecumenism etc. they need to be very very judicious when saying anything about Pope. If it had just been about the mass, I don't think they'd be paid as much attention. But it has all seemed to go hand-in-hand, hasn't it?

So peace to you, Dominick, and know I am on the "inside" fighting for our faith.
324 posted on 07/16/2004 5:20:22 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 318 | View Replies]

To: AskStPhilomena

Good news! Glad to hear that at least some bishops won't tolerate schism.


325 posted on 07/16/2004 5:21:23 PM PDT by JohnnyZ (Yes, I do think I'm funny, why do you ask?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: JohnnyZ

Unfortunately most of the bishops who don't "tolerate schism" happily shuffle sodomite priests from parish to parish so they can prey on more unsuspecting altar-boys.


326 posted on 07/16/2004 5:28:14 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 325 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
Sir, with all due respect your contention that the church hasn't suffered greatly over the last few decades and that it doesn't have some very deep rooted problems is just illogical. Everything from being in the red every year financially to being infested with sexual deviants and criminals to a precipitous decline of influence in the Western world.

It doesn't really matter how Europeans supposedly (according to you) perceive the situation. Facts are facts.

You can have the last word, you're drawing me into silly conversation and to be honest I'm a bit disappointed in you.

327 posted on 07/16/2004 5:30:00 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 322 | View Replies]

To: GirlShortstop

I apologize for not pinging you earlier my dear. I hadn't realized you were here.


328 posted on 07/16/2004 5:30:22 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 323 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480; AAABEST; Canticle_of_Deborah; ultima ratio; narses
1971 - 1976

The Archbishop expected to wait a long time before the second canonical step, the approval of Rome, was effected. Only four months elapse until February 18, 1971, when Cardinal Wright, prefect for the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy, officially approves and encourages the Society. The Roman document recognizes the Society’s international character and the fact that many bishops from the world praise and approve it. The Cardinal is happy that the Society will contribute to the distribution of the Catholic clergy in the world.

Much to the surprise of our founder, his small work of faith receives a further encouragement. When a few priests from the outside wish to join him in the Society’s work, the Archbishop submits the case to Rome, and the Roman Curia, anticipating his desires, detaches totally these priests from their bishops and even from their religious orders to make them depend exclusively from the Society of Saint Pius X. This official act of Rome recognizes the right of the Society of Saint Pius X to incardinate its members.

excerpt from A SHORT HISTORY OF THE SSPX

329 posted on 07/16/2004 5:31:52 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 168 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
there is to me. There's much less chance that a diligent Catholic who goes to a church that is 98% orthodox year after year will fall into mortal sin than a person who goes to a church that is 50% orthodox year after year. That's why its foolish to condemn sspx; they are doing their share. Even Jesus said that "He who is not against Me is with Me." why bludgeon a group that is teaching what we all agree is orthodox faith? If you feel that way about sspx, what chance do our eastern orthodox and reformed friends have of salvation? I can't believe it's zero.
They ain't perfect, but there a lot closer than most bishops.
330 posted on 07/16/2004 5:32:32 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 294 | View Replies]

To: Dominick; ninenot; BlackElk; sandyeggo; ArrogantBustard; gbcdoj; Hermann the Cherusker
As you flee the Church, you are helping them seek the ruin of Souls.

Dominick, what you've said brought to mind what Pope Paul VI wrote in a letter to Lefebvre shortly after a meeting between the two on Sep 11, 1976 (well before Lefebvre's departure from The Church):  We say to you, brother, that you are in error.  And with the full ardor of Our fraternal love, as also with all the weight of Our authority as the successor of Peter, We invite you to retract, to correct yourself and to cease from inflicting wounds upon the church of Christ. [emphasis added]
331 posted on 07/16/2004 5:36:06 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 288 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
I think there is a crisis too, IMHO, fwiw (not much, I know)

true, that a lot of central catholic doctrines are not directly attacked, but they are conveniently emptied of their meaning or diminished to almost being meaningless, e,g, mahoney not denying the real presence but relegating it to a footnote, lol.

or abortion, (It's wrong but, so is not respecting the environment, and we can't judge, so ergo, you can be pro-choice just like some catholics are pro-industry, it's the same, or seamless garment--that's even better example)
332 posted on 07/16/2004 5:38:20 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 322 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST
Sir, with all due respect your contention that the church hasn't suffered greatly over the last few decades and that it doesn't have some very deep rooted problems is just illogical. Everything from being in the red every year financially to being infested with sexual deviants and criminals to a precipitous decline of influence in the Western world.

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I haven't said anything about the Church not suffering or anything else of the sort. Obviously the defection of about half the mass going population in the west (from 60% to 30% attendance), the spread of sexual deviancy, and similar problems are about.

All I said is that most Catholics don't see the crisis we see, so it seems very difficult to equate it to Arianism.

The subjects you mention are personal sins, not heresies imposed upon us.

This leads me to echo the words that St. Josemaria wrote about 80 years ago. "These world crises are crises of saints. God needs a few man of his own in every human endeavor. Then 'Pax Christi in regno Christi'"

The crisis of today, IMHO, is a crisis of holiness and a loss of the sense of sin by many Catholics. They aren't heretics like the Arians. They are confused, and the confusion stems from the changes in the Church and the growth of secularism and scientism since WWI. And the reason people can't perceive the crisis is because they don't see themselves or others as unholy sinners in need of the sacraments.

Where are our modern saints?

I hope you agree with this last word.

333 posted on 07/16/2004 5:38:37 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 327 | View Replies]

To: Piers-the-Ploughman

Will Jesus accept you into heaven with 2% heresy and disobedience and mortal sin on your soul and mind? Does it make any difference that you only committed one small mortal sin "for Him", and not 5000 big ones?

Isn't one mortal sin still good enough for condemnation to hell?


334 posted on 07/16/2004 5:40:31 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 330 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
Isn't one mortal sin still good enough for condemnation to hell?

Like kissing the Koran? Like wearing the Mark of Shiva?

335 posted on 07/16/2004 5:42:49 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 334 | View Replies]

Comment #336 Removed by Moderator

To: Hermann the Cherusker

"Isn't one mortal sin still good enough for condemnation to hell?"

Good thing hell was abolished by the spirit of Vatican II, isn't it?

;)


337 posted on 07/16/2004 5:48:31 PM PDT by Tantumergo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 334 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker

Yes I do agree with your last word. Thank you for clearing your position up.


338 posted on 07/16/2004 5:49:17 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 333 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
I apologize for not pinging you earlier my dear. I hadn't realized you were here.

You have been busy Hermann!  No apology is necessary; your posts have been good reading.  Thank you for taking the time to do so.

p.s. you have freepmail
339 posted on 07/16/2004 5:49:41 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 328 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish
This official act of Rome recognizes the right of the Society of Saint Pius X to incardinate its members.

That grant was in force, until the SSPX left the Church. When Lefebvre was excommunicated, that point was made moot, since there are no valid SSPX Bishops. The Bishops he installed were also excommunicated, so even if they are validly installed, they lost the Episcopal rights they may have enjoyed. A Priest can't be incardinated without a Bishop. The SSPX doesn't exist in the Church, and as such doesn't enjoy those privileges.

The lack of Incardination was made clear by Ratzinger on at least two occasions I have in writing. If the SSPX retained that act as having force now, then Ratzinger would not mention that as a specific problem.
340 posted on 07/16/2004 5:53:38 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 329 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 301-320321-340341-360 ... 901-902 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson