Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza

Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

[Tantumergo]

You have mail

[Hermann the Cherusker]

People don't experience Colin Powell on a daily basis. But every Catholic in Church is experiencing Christ and his Church each time.

Therefore, their opinions of the existence of a crisis woudl seem weightier than their knowledge of Colin Powell.

Secondly, thinking more about this, one shoudl consider that the Arian Crisis was a crisis of faith, where people were rejecting the central doctrine of Christianity - the divinity of Jesus. Most everyone was aware of the crisis.

Our current crisis is a desire for a superior form of the Mass to be said more widely again, and an end to false ecumenism practiced by a small minority. Few seem aware of the problem's existence.

It just doesn't seem comparable.

[GirlShortstop]

....to post these ponderous texts....

Gentlemen, the facts that support the TRUTH found in the Bride of Christ are fabulous; please do not curtail your valiant FR endeavors.  Pax et bonum!

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

You wrote: You let the modernists, the real modernists, chase you out of the Churches.

As I have posted before, I am strictly NO, and have an orthodox NO priest. I doubt seriously I would avail myself of SSPX were it available. I don't even go to indult in my area. There are lots of bad judgments coming out of bishops and Vatican, we all agree. Some of them may be for reasons of blackmail. Seeing what orthodoxy prevails in sspx as opposed to most dioceses, I can't see why pope would really be against them. I believe sspx is among the Faith's strongest proponents and pope's best allies, though if he were to acknowledge this publicly,
Mahoney & Co would revolt and possibly consecrate bishops. Thus, Vatican has to pretend about their status. Before God we all stand, and to the best of my knowledge, admittedly limited, I can not condemn them for offering TLM and orthodox teaching for others, sorry and for reason above, I can not believe Vatican really condemns them. In fact, I am encouraged by their successes as I am those of orthodox NO bishops, say as in Richmond VA.



Vatican II was supposed to be an opening up, a toleration of different viewpoints and opinions where there are non-essentials, as opposed to the legalisms of the past. For the most part, those opposed to sspx here cite the letter of law constantly instead of looking at the big picture: the Faith needs to be preached and souls need to be saved--that's the bottom line, and I believe Our Lord doesn't mind sspx doing this if many NO bishops won't. In the spirit of V2, they should be allowed to freely operate, especially given the enormous predicament we are in. The Spirit of V2 opposes harsh canonical penalties meted out.

In theory, we oppose all errors. Then there is the pastoral and practical aspect to living. Some errors are worse then others, there are venial and mortal sins.

You said we "can't do anything from the outside." yet most acknowledge including Wanderer that indult would never be here without sspx. No one knows what would have happened had lefevbre did not do what he did. It's hard to believe though that sspx presence has not prodded restoration at least a little bit.

For their part sspx needs to accentuate the Faith positively and speak quietly but strongly about their reasons and not cast aspersions on NO properly celebrated.
It's not just about the mass, it's about seminary, sexual morality, false ecumenism etc. they need to be very very judicious when saying anything about Pope. If it had just been about the mass, I don't think they'd be paid as much attention. But it has all seemed to go hand-in-hand, hasn't it?

So peace to you, Dominick, and know I am on the "inside" fighting for our faith.

[JohnnyZ]

Good news! Glad to hear that at least some bishops won't tolerate schism.

[AskStPhilomena]

Unfortunately most of the bishops who don't "tolerate schism" happily shuffle sodomite priests from parish to parish so they can prey on more unsuspecting altar-boys.

[AAABEST]

Sir, with all due respect your contention that the church hasn't suffered greatly over the last few decades and that it doesn't have some very deep rooted problems is just illogical. Everything from being in the red every year financially to being infested with sexual deviants and criminals to a precipitous decline of influence in the Western world.

It doesn't really matter how Europeans supposedly (according to you) perceive the situation. Facts are facts.

You can have the last word, you're drawing me into silly conversation and to be honest I'm a bit disappointed in you.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

I apologize for not pinging you earlier my dear. I hadn't realized you were here.

[Land of the Irish]

1971 - 1976

The Archbishop expected to wait a long time before the second canonical step, the approval of Rome, was effected. Only four months elapse until February 18, 1971, when Cardinal Wright, prefect for the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy, officially approves and encourages the Society. The Roman document recognizes the Society’s international character and the fact that many bishops from the world praise and approve it. The Cardinal is happy that the Society will contribute to the distribution of the Catholic clergy in the world.

Much to the surprise of our founder, his small work of faith receives a further encouragement. When a few priests from the outside wish to join him in the Society’s work, the Archbishop submits the case to Rome, and the Roman Curia, anticipating his desires, detaches totally these priests from their bishops and even from their religious orders to make them depend exclusively from the Society of Saint Pius X. This official act of Rome recognizes the right of the Society of Saint Pius X to incardinate its members.

excerpt from A SHORT HISTORY OF THE SSPX

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

there is to me. There's much less chance that a diligent Catholic who goes to a church that is 98% orthodox year after year will fall into mortal sin than a person who goes to a church that is 50% orthodox year after year. That's why its foolish to condemn sspx; they are doing their share. Even Jesus said that "He who is not against Me is with Me." why bludgeon a group that is teaching what we all agree is orthodox faith? If you feel that way about sspx, what chance do our eastern orthodox and reformed friends have of salvation? I can't believe it's zero.
They ain't perfect, but there a lot closer than most bishops.

[GirlShortstop]

As you flee the Church, you are helping them seek the ruin of Souls.

Dominick, what you've said brought to mind what Pope Paul VI wrote in a letter to Lefebvre shortly after a meeting between the two on Sep 11, 1976 (well before Lefebvre's departure from The Church):  We say to you, brother, that you are in error.  And with the full ardor of Our fraternal love, as also with all the weight of Our authority as the successor of Peter, We invite you to retract, to correct yourself and to cease from inflicting wounds upon the church of Christ. [emphasis added]

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

I think there is a crisis too, IMHO, fwiw (not much, I know)

true, that a lot of central catholic doctrines are not directly attacked, but they are conveniently emptied of their meaning or diminished to almost being meaningless, e,g, mahoney not denying the real presence but relegating it to a footnote, lol.

or abortion, (It's wrong but, so is not respecting the environment, and we can't judge, so ergo, you can be pro-choice just like some catholics are pro-industry, it's the same, or seamless garment--that's even better example)

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Sir, with all due respect your contention that the church hasn't suffered greatly over the last few decades and that it doesn't have some very deep rooted problems is just illogical. Everything from being in the red every year financially to being infested with sexual deviants and criminals to a precipitous decline of influence in the Western world.

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I haven't said anything about the Church not suffering or anything else of the sort. Obviously the defection of about half the mass going population in the west (from 60% to 30% attendance), the spread of sexual deviancy, and similar problems are about.

All I said is that most Catholics don't see the crisis we see, so it seems very difficult to equate it to Arianism.

The subjects you mention are personal sins, not heresies imposed upon us.

This leads me to echo the words that St. Josemaria wrote about 80 years ago. "These world crises are crises of saints. God needs a few man of his own in every human endeavor. Then 'Pax Christi in regno Christi'"

The crisis of today, IMHO, is a crisis of holiness and a loss of the sense of sin by many Catholics. They aren't heretics like the Arians. They are confused, and the confusion stems from the changes in the Church and the growth of secularism and scientism since WWI. And the reason people can't perceive the crisis is because they don't see themselves or others as unholy sinners in need of the sacraments.

Where are our modern saints?

I hope you agree with this last word.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Will Jesus accept you into heaven with 2% heresy and disobedience and mortal sin on your soul and mind? Does it make any difference that you only committed one small mortal sin "for Him", and not 5000 big ones?

Isn't one mortal sin still good enough for condemnation to hell?

[Grey Ghost II]

Isn't one mortal sin still good enough for condemnation to hell?

Like kissing the Koran? Like wearing the Mark of Shiva?

[Tantumergo]

"Isn't one mortal sin still good enough for condemnation to hell?"

Good thing hell was abolished by the spirit of Vatican II, isn't it?

;)

[AAABEST]

Yes I do agree with your last word. Thank you for clearing your position up.

[GirlShortstop]

I apologize for not pinging you earlier my dear. I hadn't realized you were here.

You have been busy Hermann!  No apology is necessary; your posts have been good reading.  Thank you for taking the time to do so.

p.s. you have freepmail

[Dominick]

This official act of Rome recognizes the right of the Society of Saint Pius X to incardinate its members.

That grant was in force, until the SSPX left the Church. When Lefebvre was excommunicated, that point was made moot, since there are no valid SSPX Bishops. The Bishops he installed were also excommunicated, so even if they are validly installed, they lost the Episcopal rights they may have enjoyed. A Priest can't be incardinated without a Bishop. The SSPX doesn't exist in the Church, and as such doesn't enjoy those privileges.

The lack of Incardination was made clear by Ratzinger on at least two occasions I have in writing. If the SSPX retained that act as having force now, then Ratzinger would not mention that as a specific problem.