Posted on 05/20/2004 3:53:34 PM PDT by ponyespresso
Posted below are the Small Group notes that have been passed out for study this week, please review and I will share my story at the end.
WORD: Notes for leading Small Group based on Sunday preaching
Date: 16/05/04
Basic Aim: To encourage us to understand, seek and experience the baptism of the Spirit
Ice Breaker; Either use your own, or here's a suggestion...
Someone think of a person and everyone else in the group takes it in turns to ask yes/no questions (no more than 20 in total) and the person who guesses correctly wins.
Bible Reading: Acts 19:1-7
Memory Refresher; Ask the group what they recall from the preaching on this subject-It may have been a few weeks ago by now!
Preaching Overview: Notes for reference or to aid memory!
Intro
When Paul comes across the disciples in Ephesus he asks them a very direct question: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' verse 2. Lets consider four possible responses.
The Uninformed Person's Answer
"What do you mean?"
The disciples at Ephesus expressed ignorance of the Holy Spirit and they certainly were not aware that He was available to be received. Christians need to know about God's promise to pour out his Spirit and that this is now available. In the OT God came upon special individuals for special tasks to empower them (I Samuel 16:13). Joel prophesied a time when God would pour out his Spirit on all his people (Joel 2:20) and Jesus said that would finally happen after be went back to the Father (Acts 1:4, 2:33...) This promise of the Holy Spirit is one of empowering (Acts 1:8) and sealing (Eph 1:13, 4:30).
This receiving of the Holy Spirit is described in several ways (being baptised in the Holy Spirit, filled with the Spirit, etc) and is distinct from the regenerating work of the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit.
The Misinformed Person's Answer
"Of course I have, I am a Christian"
Many people assume that because they are a Christian they must have received the Spirit. There are verses in the bible that at first sight seem to imply this (I COr 12:13) but they do not require it and we need to interpret them in the light of the rest of the biblical testimony about receiving the Spirit.
When we look at the accounts of people receiving the Spirit in Acts we see that it does not necessarily happen at conversion. While Pentecost is clearly a special case the others are not (Acts 2vsl-4. Acts 8:14, Acts 9:17, Acts 19:6), unless we are prepared to bring in reasons from outside the bible.
In the accounts we have of people receiving the Spirit the event is quite spectacular. Simon the sorcerer was so impressed by it that he offered money for the ability to do it himself (Acts 8:18). Peter's argument that the gentiles had been accepted by God rested on the fact that they had received the Spirit a clearly observable phenomena (Acts 15:8) and Paul's question in verse 2 assumes that people would know if they had received the Spirit.
The Filled Person's Answer
"You bet, it was amazing, let me tell you about it!..."
So what sort of things happen when you are baptised in the Spirit?
@ Pentecost: a violent wind, things like tongues of fire, people spoke in other tongues (acts 8:18).
@ Cornelius' house: people spoke in tongues and praised God (acts 10:44).
@ Ephesus: people spoke in tongues and prophesied (Acts 19)
God had promised this sort of thing through Joel.
Throughout church history there are examples of people encountering God in a powerful way that seems to fit with the biblical experience of being filled with the Spirit. Blaise Pascal "Fire! Security, joy, peace", Isaac Watts "melting of the heart, tears gushing out of mine eyes", and D.L.Moody "I had to ask him to stay his hand". Although individual experiences will vary in intensity testimonies like these can help to raise our expectation and increase our hunger for God's empowering presence.
The Thirsty Person's Answer
"No but I would really like to"
Once things had been explained to the Ephesian disciples they were very keen to catch up. From Jesus' words in John 7:37-39 we can see there are two things that qualify us to receive the Spirit and two things we can do in seeking to be filled with the Spirit.
The qualifications are believing in Jesus and being thirsty. The things we are to do are go to Jesus and actively drink - God will not simply take control but rather work in us as we overflow in vocal praise and worship.
Digging Deeper: Some searching questions...
Ql What would your response to Paul's questions be?
Q2 What has been your experience of receiving the Spirit or seeking to receive?
Q3 What helps or hindrances are there to you actively seeking to be baptised in the Spirit or going on being filled?
Application Questions:
Ql How should I apply this teaching to my life?
Q2 How does this apply in our church life together?
Q3 What are the implications for our witness beyond the church family?
Action Points:
Share ... Encourage everyone to share where they need to adjust.
Prayer... Where appropriate, pray for one another.
Care .., Don't forget to follow up next time
Further Comments...
We would like you to continue using the 3 questions from the Discipleship leaflet.
In three's or fours explore the following questions together:
Have you spent regular time with God this week? If 'yes' what has He been saying to you?
Have you been faithful in the responsibilities and relationships that God has given you? (work, home, friendships)
Have you been able to share your faith this week or demonstrate God's love in action towards non-Christians?
Note - this is not intended to condemn but to provoke and encourage!!
I was in a church where this happened. It literally destroyed the fellowship. It was an extremely sad experience.
No - you're not wrong. There is a distinction between the indwelling of the Spirit given at salvation and the annointing of the Spirit which was what occurred at Pentecost. There are those who will disagree but they can be wrong if they wish.
As for you being possibly kicked out - to me that is a serious step to take and that could be for a couple of reasons. You may be more vocal and stringent about your approach than you realize you are or this is a symptom of a lack of fundamental Grace in the theology of your leadership.
I suspect that even if you are being too obnoxious in your approach that the latter issue is true. Pastoral leadership should always be about redemption - particularly towards its members. Any time a pastor is resorting to pushing someone out the door I have to question their maturity. Churches are filled with all types of problems in its membership - even some of the grossest sin. The first step is NOT to kick them out but to work diligently at a redemptive and restorative message.
I think your assessment of the sermon is right on.
Go with God.
I was raised in the Pentecostal church, and still attend one, and I've never heard this preached. Pentecostalism teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at salvation, and that the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is a separate work of the Spirit, evidenced by tongues. You were not wrong to question this pastor's teaching.
I think your comments should have been directed to ponyespresso...
Hey, Pony, ping to #5
I suppose one could ask them [though it doesn't tend to matter what one asks pharisees],
if they felt that when people became BAPTIZED, was it to be a single or daily event. I think Scripture is as Graham teaches. It's to be an ongoing constant filling and giving out.
And, if a new Christian has no Holy Spirit, that means, Holy Spirit draws and introduces the New Christian and then leaves town.
That's inconsistent with what Paul instructs Christians to do in discipling. There would be no Holy Spirit working to bond the new believer ever closer to Jesus and to forsake ever more successfully sin etc.
Sigh.
Pentecostals seem to make a distinction between accepting Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit. Thus, the "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed" Scripture.
Sounds like some defensive behaviour on the part of the pastors there; they don't like to be questioned. You should probably start thinking about changing church.
The type of people you are dealing with are everywhere. There are also people like you everywhere. God does stuff like that. It is quite possible that your church needs you to stay. I was in a similar situation and I stayed, no regrets.
You need to earn someone's respect, before they respond well to criticism. Church hopping doesn't get that done. Hope this makes your decision eaiser. I pray you will do well.
Seven
Every Christian has the Holy Spirit, but I question whether any or all of what is presented as tongues in Pentecostal churches is really the gift of tongues. I don't know that it is not, but I am very skeptical.
1 Corinthians 13:8 - Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
I'm guessing that your church probably adopts a wrong position on whether you can fall from grace. You can't.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
Why, well at your church they protect the image of Jesus Christ but not the truth of Jesus Christ and certainly not the testimony of the Holy Spirit! You also have had issues before.
It's no mistake that we are having this conversation. I reached the same point last night with our elders.
An earlier poster reached the same conclusion as well. Adios!
Some additional information:
Question
In Acts 19 where Paul talks about Johns baptism being of repentance, its in the third through the seventh verse. He asked the people of Ephesus there, some disciples, it says, Did you receive the Holy Spirit? and they said, No, we never even heard there was one. And this girl I was talking with the other day at work, was telling me that she received the baptism of the Holy Spirit about 3 or 4 days after she was saved. Ive heard a lot about that, I was taught back and forth when I first became a Christian and Im not real sure. She showed me this section of scripture and I didnt know how to answer her to say that it was all at one time.
Answer
This passage proves the very opposite, and Ill show you why.
Verse one, It came to pass, while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper border came to Ephesus: and found certain disciples. Now the word disciple, mathetes means a learner, we dont know who they were learning from; we dont know who they were disciples of in verse one, we just know they were learners. They were seekers of truth; they were followers of somebody. He said unto them, 'Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?' And they said, 'We havent so much as heard there is a Holy Spirit.' And he said unto them, 'Unto what then were you baptized?'" I mean, hes shocked! He is in effect saying, "Well, whatever your baptism was it certainly wasnt the normal baptism, it wasnt Christ that you believed in or you would have heard and known of the Holy Spirit."
So the question is its a shock to him that there is somebody who says they're a disciple, and a follower, who doesnt know that the baptism of the Spirit has come. So they said, "Unto Johns baptism," well whos John? John the Baptist, these are Old Testament saints. See they havent even entered into the new covenant, so theyre not even saved yet. They are only in the sense of the Old Testament, so what does he do? Then said Paul; John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance.
Now, what is the baptism of repentance? Johns baptism was a preparatory baptism; in other words he was making a people ready for the Messiah. It was a ceremonial washing, it was very much the Old Testament thing where you come and you are symbolizing the cleansing of your heart, by the washing of the outer body in the baptism, so that you are demonstrating that you are ready in your heart to receive the Messiah, it was a preparatory, turning from your sin, turning away from the past and washing yourself on the inside and demonstrating on the outside. It was a preparation saying unto the people that they should believe on Him who should come after, that is Christ Jesus.
So John was getting people to repent of their sin and have their hearts cleansed by confession and repentance towards God, symbolizing their baptism to get ready for the coming of the Messiah. Well, who does he preach to them? Does he say them, "Now look let me tell you how to get the baptism of the Spirit--let me tell you how to do this?" No, he doesnt say that; he talks to them not about the Holy Spirit, not about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, he talks to them about whom? Christ Jesus, because thats what they have to hear. And so he tells them about Christ Jesus and when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Now they've become new covenant believers and when Paul had laid his hands on them the Holy Spirit came to them immediately on the spot and at that point they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
So this passage does not teach what is called the Charismatic doctrine of Subsequence. Now it is unique in the sense that they received the Holy Spirit differently than we do, but theres a reason for that. On the day of Pentecost the people received the Holy Spirit in a marvelous way the first time He came
true? I mean it had to start somewhere, right? So the Spirit comes on them subsequent obviously to their believing, because they had to wait and pray and wait you know until the Spirit came. Now when you come into chapter eight the Gospel was taken to the Samaritans, now if there was any animosity in the world it was between the Jews and the Samaritans, right? So whatever God had done when he began the church among the Jews he better repeat when he begins it among the Samaritans, or the Jews are going to think they are second class. So when they believed the apostles were also present and also the Spirit of God came and baptized them and I believe they spoke in tongues, in the languages because thats what happened at Pentecost. It wasnt that the languages were so necessary to that event, they were a necessary connection to that first event.
Then in chapter 10 when Peter preached to Cornelius who is not a Samaritan, you go from the pure Jew to the half-breed Samaritan to the pure Gentile. When he preached to the Gentiles and they believed the same thing happened. The apostles laid their hands on them and the Spirit came and they spoke in tongues, not that it was important then, but it was important that they have the same thing the Jews had. So that the people see the church as one, so when those initial comings of the Spirit: the Jewish, the Samaritan, and the Gentile situation, there was a reenactment of the same things, and Peter goes right back to the people in Jerusalem and he says youre never going to believe this, the same thing happened to the Gentiles that happened to us. Do you know what that means? We got to accept them on our level.
Now you only got one loose end and this is these drifters who are Old Testament saints, disciples of John and I believe they are included in the same one body concept by repeating the very same phenomena that you can trace all the way to the book of Acts.
Question (continued)
Repeating what, repeating the tongues?
Answer (continued)
The laying of the hands of the apostles, the baptism, the tongues. Not that it was so necessary at that point, but that it reenacts that initial coming so that theres no sense of anything but one body of those who believe. And after that point it ceases. The Samaritans were in chapter 8, the Gentiles are in chapter 10, and the Old Testament hangovers are in chapter 19.
Very good explanation of an otherwise confusing and misleading verse! Like always when the light comes on a difficult passage it becomes more clear than the ones that appear clearest on the surface.
I don't think you are wrong at all. I don't believe it is possible to be a Christian without all three parts of the Trinity working in you. Perhaps this was a sort of "dumb-downed" teaching for people in the pews who don't study any theology, or Scripture, for that matter. Since we are imperfect, I think there are times when we conciously feel the Holy Spirit fully, and there are times when we don't. At least, that's been my experience. However, the Spirit is ALWAYS there, it is up to us to just ask for more. I don't like the response you got from your pastor. I can't imagine my pastor reacting that way. Sadly, I agree with you that it's probably time to leave. God bless!
No, you are not wrong. The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the hardest for people to grasp, and any teaching that muddies the water is very, very bad.
Outstanding response. Are these your own words, because I'm going to nick a bunch of ideas from this when I write my response to this teaching.
If they are, many thanks for your time and effort into providing such an detailed and informed answer
pony
I'd like to hear your story. Either here or Freepmail me
pony
That's exactly my wife's rap, that we need to stay to be a thorn in their side. I not overly convinced, but my wife is wise in Wisdom and Spirit in ways I can't even imagine, so I will more than likely heed her counsel.
You need to earn someone's respect, before they respond well to criticism. Church hopping doesn't get that done.
You are right, most of the time running away solves nothing for either side. Besides, when we moved over where we currently are two and a half years ago, we spent about seven months looking around for a decent church, and this was the best of the lot. I'm not too excited at the prospects of looking for another fellowship. Nor would it be good for our two kids to uproot them from church again.
thanks for your input and encouragement.
pony
This reminds me of me, many years ago. I will leave it for you to decide if that is a Godly attitude. In my case, it was me that needed the attitude adjustment, even though I still maintain that I was right on doctrine.
Stay as long as you're able to grow in your walk with God through their ministry. The moment that no longer becomes possible, then you need to consider leaving. If you find yourself struggling with frustration and/or bitterness, then you need to consider leaving.
Oh, I hope I'm not coming across that I am some poor, persecuted soul. I absolutely need an attitude ajustment. I needed one as soon as I became a Christian, I need one now, I'm sure I'll go on needing one until I'm taken up to Glory.
One of the first messages I heard when I came to this church about two years ago was a gospel preach and alter call with absolutely no mention whatsoever of repentance, of turning away from sin (or hardly even a mention of sin at all), no mention of the cost of discipleship, nothing. The message was basically, "God is good, your life would be so much better if you had Jesus in it."
I was livid, and after the preach I confronted the pastor (which, btw, is where most of this current situation is rooted) and said that he should have talked about repentance. His response to me was that Paul didn't mention repentance in every single preach he did, therefore he didn't need to mention repentance either.
Which, of course, resulted in me explaining to him (in what was a less that loving manner I admit, lol) that there are certain fundemental elements of preaching a solid Gospel message, to which repentance is most certainly one (I ask again, "Am I Wrong?"). That didn't go over well, and I have been labled a troublemaker ever since.
So, yes, a good chunk of this is self-induced, I fully and openly admit. But, honestly, until the Holy Sprit completly overhauls my heart and I become a sensitive, meek, nice guy, I would rather be an annoying thorn in their side then let such poor, anaemic and even dangerous teaching go unchallenged.
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