Posted on 05/09/2004 8:35:19 AM PDT by TaxRelief
God didn't take Noah "out" of the flood, he protected him Through the flood.
I once attended a lecture of Marvins, and it was fascinating. I also got the book and found it very good.
That said, we all should just make sure we are ready whenever He comes! That makes the most sense to me, and I am not a pre trib rapture believer, but hey, if He does come then, more the better! :-) (of course it seems to me He is already late if that is the case!)
I used to believe that too, but now while I think the ET thing still has merit, the NWO is not in the picture to me anymore, especially once I discovered some of the origin of that thinking. I do think however, that we are seeing the beginning of the end now, and I really mean that. I sure don't claim to have all or even part of the answers, but I do study it a lot. Funny how time opens up new understanding, and my entire thinking has changed on the subject.
Yes, Christians were not meant for the wrath of God, that is the one thing we can understand!
AD 70, right topcat? Is that what you are referring to? Clearly some of this did take place then. I bought and read Josephus and it really helps you comprehend a lot of the scriptures in Matt. 24.
Have you ever considered that the huge army spoken of might not be China as previously thought? What other group mentioned often in the scriptures might fit that bill? Just asking!
So I take it you are a "pan-millenilalist" - don't worry about trying to interpret the clear teaching of Scripture - It will all "pan" out in the end. Oh well!
The Clifford and Joyce Penner book, "The Gift of Sex" is a far better one for a Christian perspective on marital sex. Ed Wheat has written a few good books on the subject, as has Howard Hendricks, and a number of other Christian authors. Tommy Nelson's "The Book of Romance" is also excellent.
Being a middle-aged single Christian man who will not have sex outside of marriage, I have been pleasantly surprised at the number of middle-aged single Christian women who look forward to a passionate and uninhibited sex life with a future husband.
PRAISE GOD FOR THAT!
Could you elaborate?
For one, do you now consider the NWO benign? I sure don't!
Certainly my perspective evolves with time and more info. But mostly, I've seen an increasing progression toward the Biblical end points for the last 45 years.
Much appreciate the dialogue.
I thought I was reading the clear, plain truth of scripture. My point was that your explanation required more twists and turns to provide an answer for your preconcieved notions that it hardly seemed worth the effort. It isn't terribly complicated; Paul says that when Jesus returns, "the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call andd with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; and then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the Clouds to meet the Lord in the air...."
A legal scholar would view the coming of the Lord, with the angels and the trumpets, as a condition precendent to the raising of those "asleep in Christ" and those still alive, who are merely those that haven't fallen asleep in Christ. A condition precedent must occur first. He will return, then we will be taken into His kingdom.
The concern that I have is that you and a lot of dear friends of mine are convinced that you are gonna be whisked away by the Lord at the appointed time. Its a nice idea, and you know what? I fully beleive that God will do just that, if thats what He wants to do, just because my faith insists that HE CAN. But, reading the plain language of scripture, I don't see it. So, when your'e expecting your Rapture, I will be girding myself for the tribulaiton. Since you sincerely believe you are out of here, you wont realize that the anti-christ is duping you, possibly not until it is too late, bacause you'll still be waiting....of course if you are right, I'll see you in Heaven! (I intend to go, either way. I'm just clearer headed about it and prepared for all the Enemy will throw at me.)
It is endlessly fascinating to me that such a enormous industry has developed around supporting an idea, which in the old days, would likely have been condemned as heresy, and its adherents hunted down and burned at the stake! Yet in today's world, ideas that diverge from Truth are taken up an run with like a defensive lineman on a fumble - the wrong way for the offense. It is truly remarkable how far some will go to defend their ideas. The more vigorous the defense, the more likely that the idea defended is questionable. The more strident and strong the refusal to see the other side of the issue, the more likely that the ideologue is on shaky ground. That is true for the defenders of the Roe v. Wade SCOTUS ruling: that thing is primed to fall, and soon, for its legal basis is extraordinaly weak. Likewise for the defenders of the "Rapture". The arguments for are weak, and only there with a good old-fashioned scripture-twistin'.
Still, keep up your faith. God will reveal all things to those who need to know.
If this analysis is correct, and so far all the applicable (Old and New Testament, major and minor prophets) et-qes or teleosis (end-time) accounts seem to fit within a single model, then there is a relation between the loosening of the four angels with the sixth trumpet and the paving of the way for the Kings of the East with the sixth bowl (the bowl judgments I have surmised represent the third woe -showing the depth of God's wrath and being last would belong to the seventh trumpet which as the third woe is not revealed in the Seal chronology of chapters 6-11) John omitted entirely when asked just to seal up what the seventh trumpet angel said.
From the Seals, a parallel account within the book of Revelation spanning chapters 6 through 11, the sixth trumpet loosens four angels kept for that very hour. Associated with the killing is an army of two hundred million. John says he heard the number in reciting his vision. You get the idea that relating this vision is not a complete picture, there are other aspects that are not related to the reader. To some, this omission may offend them, however, there are enough of the pieces left to form a general picture.
In the parallel account of Rev 13-16, which I think describes the actual seventieth 'seven' of Daniel 9:27, in preparation of the final battle of Armageddon, a way is made for the Kings of the East. This then leads to the final battle of all the world against God, specifically Jesus and the 144,000. The details of this battle can be read from another parallel account from the heavenly perspective on the end of the seventieth 'seven' and advancing the timeline through the millennial period contained in chapters 19-22, specifically in verse 19:11 to the end of that chapter.
Previously, the world geopolitics has been locked in a East/West struggle between Capitalism and Communism. For years, I could not fathom how such a North/South displacement of power would become a reality because of my American Cold War perspective. However, now as events have developed, the iron curtain crumbled with nary a shot taken, and what was a large part of the second world, or Communism, has been assimilated into the West. What was the Soviet Union, has just become Russia. Russia is experiencing a difficult transition from Marxist economics to Adam Smith's as it adopts capitalism. (Even China has adopted Capitalism for its economics so that I look at Capitalism as having conquered the world without firing a shot -reminiscent of the first horseman having a bow to project his power but no arrows or sword.) As such, Russia has become aligned with its ancient Romanesque roots which permeated northward centuries ago from the eastern half of the Roman Empire dating from the fourth century.
Currently, there is unprecedented cooperation between former enemies in the East/West struggle over a new enemy: terrorism. This is contained within the Muslim world as a splinter of Islam which focuses on Jihad. Looking at the globe, if you view America, Europe and Russia, you will see that physically they comprise a nearly complete band of nations in the northern half of the Northern Hemisphere. Directly below them in another band for most of the world's landmass are Muslim countries. And more than coincidently in my opinion, in between is Jerusalem.
After the Cold War, I think the War on Terror may be the basis for this North/South conflict. Bernard Lewis writes extensively on Islam and views it as being on a collision course with the "West," technology, and our general (Greek/Roman) way of life. When President Bush used words like "Peace and Safety" repeated as he did in his State of the Union address of a year and a half ago, I took note. This present time is not in the end-times proper, but it is certainly setting the stage for the imposition of power by the King of the North in Daniel chapters 11 from verse 36-45. I view Daniel 11:31 as acting like a lens of dual focus whereby the atrocities committed by Antiochus Epiphanes in the second century B.C. -which is during the 62 weeks- as being a springboard for a more cataclysmic but similar event further out in time, specifically the Antichrist leading up to his placing the Abomination in the Temple. I would ask the reader to compare the events taking place in Daniel 11:45 to another multiple account of what I think is the same event in Luke 21:20.
The Bible certainly seems centered on Rome. I think this is because of the powerful influence the Roman world, and in my opinion that we as the "West" have inherited as a mantle of being Roman, has had and continues to have on the state of Israel. It must be remembered that when Rome was at its height during the time of the Caesars, there was a similarly large and powerful Han dynasty in China. However, because of geography and people, it has been Europe and not China that has played the major role in world events. I think this is why Paul was diverted from his initial inclination to go east and was sent into modern day Turkey, Greece and Italy. Europe would be the nursery for Christianity and the vehicle to spread it through the world. Far from being a European religion though, the greatest number of Christian converts and believers are now in the second and third worlds as great strides are being made in Africa and Asia.
In one respect, China is not forgotten by God. This huge nation which has conspicuously absent from Biblical events can be shown in these two instances of prophecy, being the only nation large enough to boast of such an army, which it has, and being situated in the East -to be a key player right at the end of this present age.
Likewise, I also see modern day America, Russia and European Union as being represented in Daniel's first three of four beasts. I view the fourth beast as being an amalgamation of the these three in federation (having a ruling council of ten kings -for one hour acting as kings) and more importantly from John's description of the terrible beast as being the combination of parts of Daniel's beasts (in inverse fashion which also gives some clue as the part each will play). This combination of present day nations is supported in Daniel's text such that when the fourth beast is destroyed, the previous three beasts are still alive and allowed to exist for a short time (Daniel 7:12). What is broken with the terrible beast then is the combined nation, the power structure that holds it together and wielded its combined might.
I think this is an important key in understanding how radically different Scripture as defined by Jesus is than other religions from antiquity. The majority of them have a cyclical nature, borne of a woman. This reflects man's observations of the seasons and natural life. It is not too much of a stretch to see that this view was extrapolated into the cosmos and conferred onto a deity.
However, the Bible is unique in having a linear aspect to it. The world begins not with birth, but with the power of God's Word. It was not until the 20th century when we as man finally understood how something could come into existence from just such a power until Einstein postulated that E=mc2.
Also, the Bible is unique in saying that there is an end to the world. Peter's prophetic announcement that the universe is consumed with fire, goes against the scientific conclusion that if everything continues as it is, that we will die a heat death as entropy winds down and the universe eventually becomes a cold dark world billions of years hence. Instead, God steps in and releases the energy contained in the matter that makes up the universe.
How Moses and Peter came to pronounce complex nuclear physics without any education centuries ahead of their time either is a happy coincidence or is evidence of the revelation of truth by God.
You said:
It isn't terribly complicated; Paul says that when Jesus returns, "the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call andd with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; and then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the Clouds to meet the Lord in the air...."To which I say, hear-hear.A legal scholar would view the coming of the Lord, with the angels and the trumpets, as a condition precendent to the raising of those "asleep in Christ" and those still alive, who are merely those that haven't fallen asleep in Christ. A condition precedent must occur first. He will return, then we will be taken into His kingdom.
I don't know your position in regards to the idea of the Rapture, or resurrection of the living, but I applaud your preparation for oppression by the demonic. I also applaud your effort to be watchful, and your anticipation of future reward.
Likewise, no matter how we would view eschatology, and there are many conflicting views, we should not allow those views to divide our focus on Christ Jesus' saving power for each of us personally.
Actually, "LiteKeeper", your position is NOT correct!!! The pre-trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-trib, positions are All incorrect,as they ALL propagate a singular taking away all at one time. this is NOT what the Bible teaches!!!! There are Seven distinct and Different "orders" of the First Resurrection, as alluded to by Paul, in 1.Cor.15:20-23, and as fundamentally anchored in the Old Testament. I wrote a thesis on this,35 years ago,and a "book" manuscript on this and other Prophetic/Political issues 20 years ago. The cost of publishing , and the opposition by the "Rapture Guru's" prohibited publishing at that time. As far as I know, I am the only writer(secular or spiritual) who "foretold the break-up of "Bosnia" and the "Fall" of Russia, six, and six-and-one-half years, before it happened. The false Rapture theory, is built-up around the "third order" of the the first resurrection, known as a "firstfruit order" ( a numbered company). If you visit my study site, you can read more about it. You are also welcome to "Support" our ministry with donations. Maybe there is someone out there who can afford to sponsor the publishing of a "book" or two ? My first title , of twenty years ago, is "None Dare Call It Deception" My second Title, completed march last year, is called, " 9/1, A Prophetic Time-line". Hope this is of Help. Regards, Sorensen
Thank you Teleosis. Lighthouse appears to be a classic ideologue; he defends his chosen position with the ferocity of a mother bear defending her cubs, and has no tolerance for dissenting views. Most rapture supporters, the 'pre-trib' types, seem to be like this. One wonders why the instrangience, the inability to at least consider the alternates? It would be an extreme tragedy to lose these folks because their anticipated rapture didn't occur as they expected.
I suppose their beleif is all part of God's design. Whichever view is True, it is good to be ready for all options, to recognize the signs when they occur.
We must keep the faith, and hope the pre-trib folks hearts and minds are not terribly hardened against this debate.
BTW - I rarely chose to "support" ministries that tell me I am all wrong...and almost never support "ministries" that claim to be the sole possessors of some "truth" - in this case re: the Rapture.
But, if you will list your web site, I will be glad to visit it, and comment on how and why you are all wet, and wrong.
What I have read by LaHaye is reason enough for me to not read anything else he has written. There are more Biblically sound authors than him; so why bother?
Personally, I am a pan-millinialist. It will all 'pan out' in the end.
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