Is Man Evil?

The Noble Pundit ^ | August 28, 2003 | Chris Noble

[HarleyD]

A few days back I was involved in a discussion about character traits. In my post I'm Selfish, Are You? I mentioned that I don't agree with the rather common position that man is inherently evil. I wanted to expand on why I disagree.

As I mentioned in one of my very first posts on this blog, I tend towards a libertarian political view. Not an anarchist libertarian, but a reasonable one. I want a small government. I want people to leave me alone unless they have good reason to interfere in my life. Sure, it opens me up to more risk, but I believe in the concept in personal responsibility.

One of the corollaries that goes along with the idea that man is inherently evil is that rules and laws have to be used to keep him in line. A lack of rules will naturally lead to anarchy and a society based solely on survival of the fittest.

Now some rules are necessary to keep society functioning properly as there are some evil people in the world. But where does the line get drawn?

If you believe that man is evil you are willing to accept quite a few rules and laws. Proponents of big government usually couch their goal in the rhetoric of protecting the people from unscrupulous charlatans. They argue that big business is evil and that there have to be rules in place to protect the little man.

They ignore the concept of caveat emptor. They act as though people are incapable of taking any step to protect themselves. Man is evil and only government has the key to protect us from the evilness of everyone else.

It's really, in my opinion, a depressing way of viewing the world (and this is coming from someone who is constantly being called an unreformable cynic). It is also directly opposed to my belief that government needs to be smaller.

Now this isn't to say that I believe that man is as pure as the driven snow and therefore rules shouldn't be necessary. To think that man is pure is to completely deny reality.

Rather, man is neutral on whole. Some people are bad, most are good. Good people sometimes do bad things and bad people sometimes do good things. But more importantly, man is smart. Man can analyze a situation and figure out how to take steps to protect himself.

Assuming he's allowed to exercise that kind of personal responsibility. Big government doesn't allow for it.

But why do I keep coming back to this personal responsibility concept? Is it important for something more than just "personal responsibility?"

I think it is. When someone takes responsibility for their own actions, they grow. They become more willing to take risks as they become better able to analyze and respond to the potential problems that they might face. And more importantly, they become more self-sufficient and less likely to look to the government for support.

Small government allows for this to happen. Big government, which is one of the side-effects of the inherently evil position, does not.

It in fact becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Man is evil, so more rules are needed. Man loses the self reliance and personal responsibility that come with freedom. He becomes more dependent on handouts. He becomes lazy. Laziness = evil, which means that we now have to create more rules to stop the slacking. And on and on and on.

I have also never seen any real evidence that man as a whole is evil (if you have some, please post a link to it in the comments). There are some people who are evil. Quite a few. But there have also been quite a few good people, too. Man as a group isn't evil, only some men as individuals.

I can't bring myself to reconcile the idea of man being inherently evil with my libertarian beliefs. The two just don't seem to be able to co-exist as they have fundamentally different approaches to the need for rules. Plus, I just don't like the inherent negativity in the inherently evil approach.

Man is not evil. Just a few individuals.

[A.J.Armitage]

I have a partial disagreement, or rather I'd like to comment on the exceptions to something you said in order to point out that a Biblical can handle it. The exception is, not all people are want to preserve themselves. Besides suicide bombers and people out for "suicide by cop", there are people with mental disorders or with such hatred they would willingly destroy themselves to also kill the object of their hate. But these people are rare. Most of them can be killed off as they come along. Even though such a person is more dangerous than a typical sinner, that's not fatal.

[A.J.Armitage]

Calvinism fails to respect the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father in the believer.

This is a strange claim.

It attempts to create a fraudulant system of governance over believers by insisting they are nothing, when in fact they are part of the royal family of God, fully capable of divine good works through remaining in fellowship with God.

Would you dare stand before God and say, "I'm Your adopted child and a priest and a king because I deserve it," or would you confess, "It was all Your grace"?

Calvinism also fails to recognize that all the human good it purports as a religious institution is also twisted into a Satanic cosmic system of evil counterfeit to God's plan.

Don't hold back on us, tell us what you really feel.

[DoorGunner]

...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Romans 13:9)

That is a very fine verse, but what about the verses just before it?

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no
power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance
of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou
then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt
have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that
which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is
the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth
evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also
for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers,
attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due;
custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Are "the powers that be" "ordained of GOD?" Or, is the Bible not true?

 

DG

 

 

[DoorGunner]

One must shudder at the thought of the State, composed of fallen beings, who are no better Spiritually than the worst dregs of society, being the final arbitor of Morality for that society.

One could conclude that the state(or King) is the arbiter of morality...That is what it looks like, from a secular point of view. But, the Christian must look to the Bible:

 

Romans 13:

For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

DG

[HarleyD]

DG

I think you're arguing the case that we Calvinist are arguing. Everything is ordained by God including our salvation.

[ChevyZ28]

The book of Romans: For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

Man has a sin nature. Man is no doubt about it evil by nature. However, one can not deny that some people do a better job of controlling there evil nature than others.
There is not a single person on this planet who is not capable of committing the most gruesome crime you can imagine.

I agree with you, each person is responsible for his or her actions. I wish this liberal trend to blame mom and dad, and who knows what all kinds of other things are used to explain away a person's bad behavior would cease and desist. Each and everyone of us is responsible for what he or she does. Our society is way too quick to blame ruthless behavior on some mental in capcitation, or due to the abuse somewhere in childhood, rather than to place the blame where it belongs; squarely on the shoulders of the doer of the evil deed. However, that does not change the irrevocable fact all men are inherently evil by nature. One of the many reasons why government has grown to the size it has is because we have allowed fast talking lawyers and psychologists to take over our criminal justice system, and blame evil deeds on everyone and everything but the one place where blame for evil deeds belong, on the shoulders of evil doers. We don't need more laws, we just need to more strictly enforce the laws we have. However, even this fact does not eliminate the absolute fact man is inherently evil. If the boys who planned and carried out the Columbine shootings were alive today, they would never see a day in prison or have to worry about possible death penalty. These boys would immediately be declared insane and locked in a hospital rather than be held accountable for their actions. We have laws, because MAN CAN NOT BE TRUSTED TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT ON HIS OWN, NEVER HAS BEEN, NEVER WILL BE. even worse, we can not count on the law holding evil doers accountable for their actions. We live in the most free society politically and individually speaking. People are freely given a choice everyday to be good, or to be bad. Yet, everyday somewhere someone breaks a law, even if it is something as simple as going above the posted speed limit. Do you know why? Because we are rebellious and evil in nature.

In closing, the majority of people do right only because they are afraid of the consequences. The people who do not do right, have said consequences be damned, I am going to do this because I can(mainly because there are no real consequences for evil behavior any more).

[biblewonk]

Yes, man is evil.

[DoorGunner]

"...Everything is ordained by God including our salvation."

It is not, nor indeed can it be, a part of my belief system; that human beings are merely "Meat Puppets."

DG

[HarleyD]

Well, you said in post 44 everything was ordained by God. Now you're saying not everything. Which is it?

[DoorGunner]

 

Well, you said in post 44 everything was ordained by God.

No, I did NOT. YOU said that, in your post #45. I merely quoted the Bible, which says (among other things):

" For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

That is NOT the same as saying: "...everything is ordained by God."

 

Now you're saying not everything.

I ALWAYS have been saying exactly that.

 

Which is it?

IT is that the Bible is true.

Furthermore, I say that Anarchism and Biblical Christianity are not compatible.

Q. [For any Calvinist Libertarian] Is taxation THEFT?

 

DG

p.s. You [all] would be well advised to not even think about calling me a "statist."

 

 

 

[HairOfTheDog]

I am not studied, but your post rings true with me, in the way that the idea we are all 'totally depraved and deserving of hell' does NOT.

[asformeandformyhouse]

Jesus seemed to think so:

Matthew 19:16  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[HarleyD]

I think I misread your post. Sorry.

[RnMomof7]

I'm glad to see once in your posts you have come to recognize that man is not totally depraved.

A SAVED man is a new creature in Christ. Why would he have to become NEW if he was not TOTALLY depraved.

I am still waiting on your response to Post 378 Special interest in the scriptural foundation for your belief in a "pre screening" of the saved .

This pre "screening seems contrary to "free will"

[RochesterFan]

Just a quick post to say that you two really nailed it!

Oddly, there are many Libertarians, such as myself and those pinged above, who actually derive our Libertarianism from the pages of scripture. This of course includes the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of mankind.

Absolutely true. Of course we realize that Jesus Christ taught in John 8:31-32

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

So I conclude that it is our continued belief in and dependence upon Christ that makes us true libertarians...

When you wrote

A strong magistrate is just a totally-depraved man, with a lot of power.

I thought, Wouldn't that be a great bumper sticker...

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

And please assure us she will not covet too much of your Freeper time. We had you first.

I have FReeper time?

Sadly (very sadly), I haven't noticed having very much of late.... the result of working part-time jobs *and* building up my fledgling brokerage business at the same time.

(sigh)

Oh, well. I expect to have more "FReep time" available on the weekends. Hopefully, I'll see y'all around this Friday...

Best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Well, i congradulate you my friend, but express a bit of disappointment. You see, i was in the process of arranging a Marriage for you with a very pretty, very brilliant, 18 year old Jedi apprentice that i have been training for the past two years or so...(sigh!) The match would have been so Eugenically interesting, as to be frightening.

Gee, CDL... You might have mentioned this carefully-orchestrated plot of yours a bit sooner; maybe before I revisited Oklahoma and re-connected in a big way with my Senior-High-School girlfriend (more details forthcoming, when I have the time and inclination). 18-year old Calvinist chicks are hot (at least, every single 18-year old Calvinist girl I've ever encountered).

Seriously, though... 18??? Has it occurred to you, my good man, that I am nearly on the cusp of the wizened old age of Thirty? (and expect to be already 30 by the time I "walk the aisle")

Gadzooks -- I felt I was robbing the cradle badly enough last year when I was 28 and dating a 19-year old OP girl.... and here you were planning to extend my already-outrageous under-age dating habits by another two full years? What am I supposed to do, by the girl Life Insurance policies on myself as a token of my love? "No flowers and candy for you, my sweet -- since I'll be kicking the bucket loooong before you, here's a half-million dollar Whole Life jackpot ticket!"

No... I think it's probably not to be, my friend. Tantalizing as the prospect of a vivacious young 18-year-old Calvinist lovely might be, I think we ought hope to find this eligible young Amidala a suitable Reformed Jedi Apprentice who was at least born in approximately the same decade as she.

I'm long, long past my Teen-age years, and winding down my last days in the Twenties... so, when it comes to re-living teen-age fantasies (I'm sure I'd have loved to meet this lady of yours when I was 18 myself -- except that she was, uh, seven at the time), I think that re-firing the romance with my high school sweetheart (now devoutly Christian, a mutual bond we didn't fully share the first time around) is enough teen-age fantasy for this one-foot-in-the-grave old goat.

best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

May we assume the future Mrs. OP is an OP also?

No... but she's already agreed to be (actually, she suggested as much, before I even raised the subject)...

Our discussion went something like this...

• Her: "Since you're going to be the Man of our house, we should attend your church..."
• Me: "Sweetheart, you play Bass Guitar for the worship service at your Church for their Monday Night service (she's the bass guitarist for one of these non-denominational mega-churches with multiple services per week). The Orthodox Presbyterian Church only conducts its primary Worship service on Sunday Mornings. There's no conflict here, babe... We can do both!!"

Granted -- she is aware that her black leathers, tattoos, and piercings aren't really "Orthodox Presbyterian style"... and there aren't a whole lot of openings for Bass Guitarists in the OP musical worship sections (Heck, some ultra-regulativist OP-ers don't even like to use Hymnbooks, preferring instead an Exclusive Psalmody).

But that's okay. Most Orthodox Presbyterians don't really like my old-school Metallica and Sisters of Mercy CD's either, but they still put up with me nonetheless. Between the two of us, we'll work it out -- social conventions be damned (grin).

Best, OP

[Dr. Eckleburg]

her black leathers, tattoos, and piercings...

You're marrying Pink?

[P-Marlowe]

I think you're arguing the case that we Calvinist are arguing. Everything is ordained by God including our salvation.

Well I would agree that EVERYTHING is indeed ORDAINED by God. Yet I am not a Calvinist. I believe it and yet I am ineligible for the GRPL. How can this be?