PATRIARCH’S PARDON: Vartholomaios forgives Catholics for sack of Constantinople in 1204

ekathimerini.com ^ | Wednesday April 14, 2004 | ekathimerini.com

[Destro]

Wednesday April 14, 2004

PATRIARCH’S PARDON

Vartholomaios forgives Catholics for sack of Constantinople in 1204

Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios yesterday forgave Catholics for the 1204 sack of Constantinople by crusaders from the Fourth Crusade during a liturgy in Istanbul marking the 800th anniversary of the event and attended by Cardinal Philippe Barbarin, Archbishop of Lyon. “We cannot forget that tragic day for Constantinople and for our Patriarchate but we forgive... and we accept with satisfaction the expression of their regret and the reassurance that the West will never again undertake such an abomination against the Christians of the East,” Vartholomaios said. “It is a fact that a great sin was committed against Constantinople 800 years ago,” Cardinal Barbarin said.

[Destro]

The wars with the Protestants were not Papal blessed Crusades. You forget what Constantinople was (is) --- the capital of the Christian world to which the Pope and all Christendom was a subject.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Then why would the Pope apologize when Constantinople's subjects tore it up?

Constantinople was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire; unpaid soldiers on their way to defend it "got paid".

The actions against the Protestants killed many more than those Crusaders, and lasted for centuries.

[Destro]

Constantinople was the capital of the ENTIRE Roman Empire. The Emperor remained "Dominus Noster" and "Augustus" its citizens called themselves "Romaioi".

[Tuco Ramirez]

1. Then why would the Pope apologize for the actions of some reckless "Constantinopalians"?

2. At that point, the Eastern Empire WAS the Roman Empire; the West had fallen.

[Destro]

You are ignorant of history. Right down to the end of Constantinople, Western barbarian kings would seek the right to rule as such from the Emperor in Constantinople. Even if such an approval became mere ceremony and tradition, the Emperors in New ROme NEVER relenquished claim to all the lands of the Roman Empire and no Western ruler - not even Charlemagne - ever claimed otherwise. Only the Muslims refused to recognize the Emperial claim.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Please answer my question; WHY IS THE POPE APOLOGIZING FOR WHAT YOU SEEM TO CONSIDER ACTS AGAINST CONSTANTINOPLE BY ITS OWN SUBJECTS?

If Constantinople was the Capital of the Universe, why does the Pope give a hoot as to what happened there?

The truth is that the schism had already occurred, and few people in the West (or even the East at that point) had any allegiance to Constantinople (or their "Patriarch").

[Destro]

If the Pope did not give a hoot about the authority of Constantinople why did Papal authority rest on the forgery called the Donation of Constantine?

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/donation.html

The Donation of Constantine

The Donation of Constantine was a document supposedly written by emperor Constantine (285-337 A.D.) granting the Catholic Church ownership of vast territories within the western Roman Empire. The document stated that he made this generous gift out of gratitude to Pope Sylvester I who had converted him to Christianity and had cured him of leprosy. For centuries the Donation legitimated the Church's possession of the papal lands in Italy. Unfortunately, the Donation was entirely fake, as even the Church eventually acknowledged.

The truth is that the Church only officially acquired the papal lands in 756 A.D. when King Pepin of the Frankish Empire gave them to the Church as a gift. 756 A.D. also appears to be the time when the text of the Donation first appeared. It was probably created by a cleric either in Rome or the Frankish court. Its purpose may have been to allow the King to claim that he was returning, not giving, the papal lands to the Church. In this way, the fiction of the Donation added legitimacy to a convenient political marriage between the Catholic Church and the Frankish state.

The Donation was not revealed to be a forgery until 1440. In that year Lorenzo Valla published his Discourse on the Forgery of the Alleged Donation of Constantine, in which he enumerated the large number of historical anachronisms that pervaded the work. For instance, it referred to Byzantia as a province when in the fourth century it was only a city, it referred to temples in Rome that did not yet exist, and it referred to 'Judea,' which also did not yet exist. Valla could have added that emperor Constantine never had leprosy, making it impossible for Pope Sylvester to have cured him of this disease. The Catholic Church suppressed Valla's work for years. Centuries later, it publicly conceded that the Donation was a fake.

The Catholic Church ceded the Papal States back to Italy in 1929.

[Tuco Ramirez]

The new state of Italy seized the Papal States in 1870/71 during unification; the Vatican did not recognize the Italian government (due to the seizure of the lands) until a deal was made with Mussolini in 1929 (the Lateran Treaty).

As far as "forgeries", that stuff is way too "X files" for me. Any such silliness to diminish the Papacy is kooky.

[Romulus]

Not returning the Shroud of "Turin"?

To whom?

[Destro]

The Church in Turin is doing a good job of stewardship. They should keep the Shroud - but fork over some of the tourist money to the Patriarch:)

[Romulus]

I'm not aware that the Patriarch of Constantinople has ever asserted a clain to ownership, present or historical, of the Shroud. While I'm kindly disposed towards Black Bart, his claim on the shroud is no stronger that that of the Patriarch of Lisbon.

[Destro]

How about a share of the tourist dollars from St. Mark's then?

[Romulus]

The truth is that the Church only officially acquired the papal lands in 756 A.D. when King Pepin of the Frankish Empire gave them to the Church as a gift.

This is false. The patrimonium Petri, the so-called Papal Republic, dates to at least 685. It was not a gift of the Franks, the everlasting boogeyman of Eastern nighhtmare, but of an organic political consolidation, reflecting the natural choice of the Italian people between Byzantine oppression (both political and religious) and Lombard invasion.

[FBDinNJ]

Why should the tourist dollars from St. Mark's be shared? It was paid for by the Venetians.

Even the mosaics in Saint Mark's were painted by Venetians and not Byzantines.

[Romulus]

Tourist dollars? The last time I was at St. Mark's, entrance was free, except for the Pala D'Oro and the horses. These funds support the maintenance of a functioning Christian basilica. Should the Orthodox regain control of Hagia Sophia in my lifetime (please God) a handsome check from my bank account will be on its way to aid in the restoration.

[FBDinNJ]

My history is not flawed, the Gothic invaders were all heretical Arians who invaded Catholic lands. The Orthodox did nothing to help the West.

[FBDinNJ]

Constantinople was the capital of the ENTIRE Roman Empire. The Emperor remained "Dominus Noster" and "Augustus" its citizens called themselves "Romaioi"."

No it wasn't. After the Tetrarchy was setup by Diocletian as a result of the crisis of the 3rd Century, there were several capitals of the Roman Empire. Rome, Ravenna, Milan, and I believe even Trier, Germany were all Roman Capitals at one point in time.

[Desdemona]

Even the mosaics in Saint Mark's were painted by Venetians and not Byzantines.

Painted? Try set. Mosaics are made out of small pieces of glass set in cement.

And the Venetians, uh, acquired St. Mark himself, who lies under the altar, from Constantinople.

That is also from where the Shroud of Turin was "acquired". I'm not sure about the Crown of Thorns, but as our French tour guide at the Louvre said quite candidly, "We stole it." That was during the crusades.

[Destro]

Exactly! the Pala D'Oro and the horses are looted treasure from the 4th crusade.

[Desdemona]

Good luck trying to pry the Venetians from their money. The Basilica San Marco doesn't generate THAT much in donations.

Some of us will readily admit where and how the relics were acquired. As long as they are being cared for....