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To: ultima ratio; nika; Unam Sanctam; St.Chuck; AAABEST; gbcdoj; BlackElk; sandyeggo
And while He would protect the Church from dogmatic error, this doesn't mean that every utterance of a body of bishops is infallible. Vatican II, after all, was a failed council. It was not the springtime of renewal anticipated by Catholics. Instead it was the opportunity long awaited by Modernists to impose a revolution. It has achieved not a single one of its purported goals. It made some pastoral suggestions. But it said nothing binding on our intellects and wills. If it did--suppose you tell us what it is. In fact, you can't, because nothing was stated as infallible truth beyond what had always been stated.

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth.  In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent.  This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.    
LUMEN GENTIUM
Dogmatic Constitution on the Church
Second Vatican Council

For any Catholic with eyes to see, that's a pretty sharp and tight tug of closure on loopholes.  Some will continue to deny; just like Frances Kissling, and John Kerry surely do.

Pray for HH John Paul II, the Bishops, clergy, and the faithful.

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."
2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight.   

Thanks St. Chuck for bringing up these two verses!

103 posted on 04/06/2004 4:44:56 AM PDT by GirlShortstop
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To: GirlShortstop
The citation from Lumen Gentium is essentially descriptive. It is describing the authoritive nature of the Church's Magisterium. But you should realize such authority can only be exercised under certain conditions. Only dogmatic statements made by the Council would be guaranteed Divine protection and be considered infallible and therefore binding on the faithful. This is important to note because Vatican II explicitly excepted its own documents from being considered dogmatic and binding, notwithstanding the word "dogmatic" used in some document titles. The Council fathers wished to offer pastoral guidance only, and therefore nothing they said was actually either binding or infallible.

But if you think something the Council said IS infallible teaching--then it would be incumbent on you to tell the rest of us what you believe had suddenly been made binding on all Catholics. Name, if you will, the specific dogmatic teaching. Remember, we're not talking about dogmas already declared by previous popes or councils which may have been merely repeated by the bishops in the documents. We're talking about a newly declared doctrine that is suddenly made binding on all the faithful. It would be very strange to claim the Council had made such a pronouncement yet not be able to come up with a specific teaching that qualifies. Yet nobody ever does. Nor will you be able to do so, since no dogma was ever specifically pronounced by Vatican II.

104 posted on 04/06/2004 5:34:50 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: GirlShortstop; St.Chuck
"[The faithful] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence, and position, to manifest to the sacred pastors [bishops] their views on matters that concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals." (Canon Law 212)

I believe I have presented my opinions on this site, according to these guidelines. I have always tried to do so thoughtfully and with a minimum of attitude, considering the pounding I sometimes take from those who don't agree with what I say.
105 posted on 04/06/2004 5:46:01 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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