The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved

Our Lady of the Rosary Library ^ | St. Leonard of Port Maurice

[sinkspur]

Few souls have a real hope of Heaven; as cruel as that sounds, it's the truth.

It's not the truth.

Man, since when did Catholics turn into Calvinists?

[sinkspur]

He dies for those who were worthy of His death, no more. And that's not many.

That's nobody.

Yet we are all bound to conduct ourselves by the law, as though we did have a possibility of salvation.

More Calvinism.

[Loyalist]

Calvinists also believe that if you're saved, you can't lose your salvation. How arrogant is that?

To believe that few will be saved is not to believe in the Calvinist heresy; it is simply to recognize that while salvation is theoretically open to all, only those who are worthy will be saved.

[sinkspur]

So, the Good Shepherd, who leaves ninety-nine to go after the one, wasted His time, I guess.

Why did He even bother enduring death, for a handful?

[Loyalist]

So, the Good Shepherd, who leaves ninety-nine to go after the one, wasted His time, I guess.

Free will. He left ninety-nine who chose through free will to reject Him, to go the after the one who through free will and perfect contrition did not.

Why did He even bother enduring death, for a handful?

If only a handful worked out their own salvation, if only a handful benefited perfectly from sacramental grace, if only a handful had perfect contrition for their sins, far better than if none.

[sinkspur]

if only a handful had perfect contrition for their sins, far better than if none.

The Church does not teach that perfect contrition is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

Imperfect contrition for venial sins, and imperfect contrition with sacramental confession, is sufficient for forgiveness.

Well, I prefer hope to pessimism.

[dangus]

Funny. You didn't answer my question.

Let me remove any distracting words for you:
Is it OK to commit murder?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Funny. You didn't answer my question.

Your question.

So, Big Mack, you think it is OK to commit mortal sin?

Your question is assuming I accept your concept of Degrees of Sin, I don't. Its not found in the Bible. Sin is sin. If I steal a paper clip or murder someone in the eyes of God they are both equal and wrong.

BigMack

[dangus]

I reworded the question to make it nice and easy and clear.

Do you think it is OK to commit murder?

[Quester]

So, the Good Shepherd, who leaves ninety-nine to go after the one, wasted His time, I guess.

Free will. He left ninety-nine who chose through free will to reject Him, to go the after the one who through free will and perfect contrition did not.

I think you've got this parable wrong.

The ninety and nine did not reject Christ.

When the Good Shepherd had found the one which was lost, ... He returned it to be with the other ninety and nine.

[SoliDeoGloria]

I'm not convinced that 95% of baptized Catholics are walking around in mortal sin, however.

Nor am I. It's more like 99%. Few souls have a real hope of Heaven; as cruel as that sounds, it's the truth.

Wow! Does the Roman Catholic Church have anything to do with saving it's people? If so, should the 99% failure rate reflect on it?

[SoliDeoGloria]

Few souls have a real hope of Heaven; as cruel as that sounds, it's the truth. - Loyalist

Man, since when did Catholics turn into Calvinists? - sinkspur

You just had to slander Calvinism, didn't ya...



GRPL: SWARM SWARM SWARM!!!

Kidding aside, we Calvinists believe that God has an "Amazing Grace"... And since it is He who saves Us, we believe He'll have exactly the right percentage of us in Heaven.

[irishtenor]

100% of all who are called.

[SoliDeoGloria]

Calvinists also believe that if you're saved, you can't lose your salvation. How arrogant is that?

To believe that few will be saved is not to believe in the Calvinist heresy; it is simply to recognize that while salvation is theoretically open to all, only those who are worthy will be saved. - Loyalist

Wow. I mean, Wow! You state Calvinism is arrogant, and then proceed to say that Christ died for "only those who are worthy."

I assume you missed the part where Christ says he didn't come for the healthy / righteous. Here it is:

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "[Matt 9:12, 13; Luke 5:31, 32] It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

While we're at it, let's throw in some Romans for good measure:

Romans 5:6-8
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Oh, and, by the way, you should also take Christ's word for never loosing your Salvation:

John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Just to summarize: We don't keep our salvation, God keeps it for us. And since God doesn't fail, neither will our salvation.

[drstevej]

88Calvinists also believe that if you're saved, you can't lose your salvation. How arrogant is that?***

Depends on why they believe you can't lose it. If they believed it is because of their merit then it is arrogant. But they don't so it isn't. If they believe that salvation is based on Christ's merits, which they do. It is a very humble doctrine.

[irishtenor]

GOOD RESPONSE.

[Jerry_M]

I am constantly reminded that I am a filthy, rotten sinner, and deserving of hell and eternal damnation.

Yet, I have the assurance that I will be fully and completely delivered from this body of sin by the Grace of God. Not because of anything I have ever done, or will ever do, but solely because of the work of Christ on my behalf.

Salvation is of the LORD.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Few souls have a real hope of Heaven; as cruel as that sounds, it's the truth. - Loyalist

Man, since when did Catholics turn into Calvinists? - sinkspur

Actually, if we're comparing ratios and percentages, it bears mentioning that Calvinists have generally taught that God has Elected the Salvation of all those infants whom He has permitted to die in the womb or infancy. This is not a dogma which is universally taught by every single Calvinist, but it is a dogma which has been generally taught by the majority of great Calvinists throughout history from John Calvin himself on down through the ages.

By contrast, the Roman Catholic church expressly denies the salvation of unbaptized infants who die in the womb or in infancy. From my thread "Baptism does not Regenerate" (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1076118/posts)

In his above-mentioned nihil obstat book, bearing the imprimatur of Edm. Can. Surmont (then Roman Catholic Vicar-General), Murphy further explained why all humans -- whether fetuses or octogenarians -- must be baptized before they die. "We must conclude," he declared, "that infants dying in their mother's womb do not enjoy the Beatific Vision in Heaven." Thus say the lords of the Roman Catholic Church.

But the Lord of all Lords insists upon the very opposite. For the Word of God assures us that infants of believing parents are sanctified even from their conception, long before they could ever be baptized -- First Corinthians 7:14. Compare also: Genesis 17:5-12; Luke 1:5-7,39-45; II Timothy 1:3-5 & 3:14-15.

When one considers the high rates of infant mortality throughout most of history, not to mention the hundreds of millions (or more) throughout the ages who have been killed by Abortion, it becomes clear that the majority of Calvinist theologians throughout history have foreseen a heavenly New Jerusalem whose population numbers perhaps in the billions. Many (perhaps even the majority) having died only a few months or years after Conception and having experienced little time on this Earth prior to being made Citizens of Heaven, yes; but who can presume to deny God's prerogative to save as many hundreds of millions, at whatever age, as He sees fit?

Oh yeah -- the Roman Catholic Church does so presume. For by her own imprimatur, Roman Catholicism declares that all those hundreds of millions or even billions of unbaptized infants are even now sweltering in the agonies of Hell.

And if a Romanist wants to flinch from this express teaching of his own Church, then he must answer me this: If it is not True that hundreds of millions or even billions of unbaptized infants are even now sweltering in the agonies of Hell, then why did the Roman Catholic church pronounce such dogma to be nihil obstat -- without error?

Unless, of course, Romanism is just Dead Wrong on this false teaching of hers... as she is so utterly wrong, on so many of her dogmas in so many areas of theology.

[sinkspur]

If it is not True that hundreds of millions or even billions of unbaptized infants are even now sweltering in the agonies of Hell, then why did the Roman Catholic church pronounce such dogma to be nihil obstat -- without error?

"Nihil obstat" is not necessarily consonant with Catholic doctrine.

I've never been taught, or heard, that unbaptized infants are in hell. Rather, the Church posits "limbo," a place of natural happiness.

The fact is, there is no infallible teaching about the souls of unbaptized infants. Thus, we are free to believe that God, in His own way, gives even the souls of infants the chance at choosing Him, and thus achieving the Beatific Vision.

[A.J.Armitage]

He dies for those who were worthy of His death, no more. And that's not many. I certainly would not consider myself one of those.

So you're still in your sins?