Posted on 03/11/2004 11:48:05 PM PST by Salvation
Allow me to assist. The Masoretic text is usually dated (the manuscript, not the source) to around 900A.D.
There are some extremely fragmentary manuscripts from a couple hundred years earlier in Cairo. The oldest complete manuscript is from just after 1,000 A.D.
The text of the manuscripts themselves, however, is not tainted by the reletive modern dating, since the Hebrew scrolls at Qumran show a remarkable similarity to the Masoretic age texts. The thousand intervening years did not seem to have a negative effect.
You're welcome. I started realizing you may have thought I was one of those who think 'God is Love so, hey, let's all just have a nice group hug' types.-)
May the peace of Christ be with you, always.
Setting doctrine and then ignoring it for the sake of unity is no doctrine at all. ~~ HarleyD
HarleyD is right. Setting doctrine and then ignoring it for the sake of "unity" is no doctrine at all.
He didn't seduce any Flower Girls. He didn't SODOMIZE any Altar Boys (for which the immediate Civil Penalty should be death, not "reassignment". Or Re-Ass-ignment, which is how the Roman Church sweeps these matters under the rug and provides the Sodomites with fresh Altar Boys to pervert and destroy).
He fell into the Sin of Consensual Adultery with a Parishioner who sought his Counsel. I can "understand" that -- I've broken the Seventh Commandment myself.
But the Orthodox Presbyterian Church handled it the right way: IMMEDIATE EXCOMMUNICATION.
No Excuses. Do not pass "Go", Do not f-cking "Collect 200 Dollars". IT'S OVER.
After regularly attending Church, being Denied the Sacrament, and sweltering under the Ban of Excommunication for FOUR YEARS, his Penitence -- with his Wife's Forgiveness -- was Accepted as Valid.
The Orthodox Presbyters PERMITTED him to once again Receive the Eucharist -- on the understanding that he cannot, EVER, return to the Office of Presbyter.
And today (and I say this with knowledge, for he is a friend of mine)... he thanks God every day for his Wife's Forgiveness, the opportunity to raise his children in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and the opportunity to preach the Gospel down on the piers of Key West -- so much as His Elders will oversee and permit.
And THAT is how we take care of business in the Church of Jesus Christ.
We ain't the Church of Rome. We take this Bible stuff SERIOUSLY.
best regards, OP
I have "helped" nothing. I am nothing but another Law-Breaker against the Seventh Commandment.
I never encountered my Friend, of whom I speak above, until AFTER I returned to the Church of Jesus Christ... in my own case, specifically the Orthodox Presbyterian Denomination.
I was nothing but a Prodigal Son -- who had forsaken the Church of Jesus Christ for years in Drunkenness, Debauchery, and Adultery -- but even in my Apostasy, the Creed of Dutch Calvinism burned upon my heart like a hateful brand:
It BURNS! It burns us, it freezes us... Take it off of us, it will kill us!!
Until a Man has wandered far from God... until he has fed from the Trough of Pigs and renounced his own Birthright but Jesus won't let him go... I don't think he can truly understand the awful Horror and Majesty of the Creed of Dutch Calvinism.
Even in my Apostasy, I knew, by the Doctrines of Calvinism, that I had been Bought with a Price, and He WOULD NOT let me go. It BURNS! It burns us, it freezes us... Take it off of us, it will kill us!! The Creed of Dutch Calvinism should be rightfully considered as the Greatest Hope, and the most Awful Horror, that any Protestent Christian could ever consider. Westminster pales in comparison.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way... when His Wrath is kindled but a little.
But ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry: "Abba, Father!"
And I know that I am not my Own, but belong body and soul, in life and in death, to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ.
The Horror and the Majesty.
The Power and the Glory.
It is a Fearful Thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.
And it is a Fearful Thing to study Dutch Calvinism, and to understand their doctrines.
Truly, the Fear of the LORD is the Beginning of Wisdom.
The Penitent Presbyter of whom I have spoken above, I have taught nothing, aside from a few intellectual Theological points. I'm just a redeemed Prodigal "Punk", a Newbie by Orthodox Presbyterian standards.
But my Friend has taught me much... about Orthodox Presbyterianism, about Church Discipline, and about the Fear of the LORD.
Dutch Calvinism really is quite terrifying.
And really quite beautiful.
Cool stuff. Best Regards, OP
30,000 denominations taking this "Bible stuff seriously," and the number is growing.
I prefer to stay with the Church that wrote, canonized and preserved Sacred Scripture, not the 30,000 churches that use Luther's abridged version.
The major U.S. churches that recorded growth between 2001 and 2002 included the Catholic Church (No. 1), the Southern Baptist Convention (2), the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (5), the Assemblies of God (10), the American Baptist Churches in the USA (19), Christian Churches and Churches of Christ (23) the Jehovah?s Witnesses (24) and the Church of God, new on the list at No. 25. linkI prefer to stay with the Church that wrote, canonized and preserved Sacred Scripture, not the 30,000 churches that use Luther's abridged version.
"30,000 denominations" is a Romanist Lie.
In all due respects, there is no more "difference" between the Dutch Reformed and the Scot Presbyterians than there is any "difference" between the Russian Orthodox and the Anthiochian Orthodox.
Yes, the Antiochian Orthodox shave their beards, horror of horrors.
And we Scot Presbyterians make fun of the Dutch Reformed for their "Klompen Dancing", all in good fun... mainly because Scot Presbyterians ain't got no Rhythm.
But it's all the same Doctrine, aside from the Diversities of National Liturgies. Scot Presbyterian is Dutch Reformed is Swiss Calvinist, and we trade Presbyters like Baseball Cards because it's all the same Church.
You gotta long way to go, "AquinasFan", if you wanna claim "Unity" as a justification for the hopelessly self-contradictory Morass that is Roman Catholicism against the Biblical Fraternity of Calvinist Protestantism. Aside from "kissing the Papal Ring", there is More Doctrinal Unity between the Scot Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed than there will EVER be between Molinist Catholics and Augustinian Catholics.
Aside from "kissing the Papal Ring", the Many Disparate Congregations of Rome possess NOTHING like the Doctrinal Unity which is found amongst Calvinists.
Y'all just have a slavish obedience to a Papal Crown which is found NOWHERE in Scripture, while you disagree on everything else... meanwhile, we Calvinists have a lovely TULIP garden on which we ALL agree -- planted by God, watered by the Prophets, and Cultivated by the Apostles, the 6,000-year-old Church of Jesus Christ (Even you Romanists claim that your "church" is only 2,000 years old -- how very Sad. How very NOVEL.)
Please provide me a link to the Catechism of the 30,000* Bible-only denominations. Either that, or tell me what all "Bible Only" churches agree upon.
____________________________________________________________________
*According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations." 1
Whoopie-do. You've provided me with a link to the Catechism of the Roman Church.
Forgive me if I'm not impressed.
I seem to remember there being a Church in Adam's day. In Abraham's Day. In Moses' Day. In David's Day. In the Days of the Prophets. In the Days of the Apostles. AND SOMEHOW, THEY ALL MADE DO WITHOUT THE CATECHISM OF ROMANISM!!
Amazing, that.
Can it be? Is it Possible? Was there, in fact, a Church of God upon the Earth 4,000 years before the particular Bishop of Rome started usurping supremacist and imperialistic False Authority unto himself?
SHOCKING, BUT TRUE!!
Please provide me a link to the Catechism of the 30,000* Bible-only denominations. Either that, or tell me what all "Bible Only" churches agree upon.
Well, here's a Link to The Bible. All Calvinists agree on THAT.
And please don't tell me that there isn't an incredible diversity of opinion amongst Roman and all Christian Scholars on the "interpretation" of the Acts of the Councils, or that the Holy Scriptures aren't Perspicuous. The fact is, there are vast differences of opinion of the Interpretations of the Acts of the Councils, engendered by the fact that the Formulations of the Conciliar Acts are generally much less explicit than the Wording of God-breathed Scripture!
The ONLY thing that holds the thousand Roman Denominations "together" is Lip Service to the Papal Ring... Molinists and Thomists and Augustinians, oh my! Traditionalists and Conservatives and "Dignity Catholics", oh my! They all pays their Lip Service, and they all takes their chances -- pressing their separate denominational agendas upon the Vatican.
But if you want something a little more SPECIFIC, howzabout this:
Here's the scoop, kemosabe... you find ten Protestants at random, YOUR CHOICE, who claim to adhere to the Canons of Dort... and I get to find ten Roman Catholics, at random, MY CHOICE, who claim to adhere to your "Roman Catechism".
And then let's compare Notes.
And you will quickly find, that Reformed Protestant Unity is God's own Truth, no matter how many "denominations" you Romanists claim for us (many of which are just National and Liturgical Diversities anyway)... while "Roman Catholic Unity" is nothing but a false Satanic Fraud, no matter how much you deny your own Theological Fractures.
Maybe that's the problem. Here's a link to the complete Bible.
All Calvinists agree on THAT.
Well, so do all other Protestants, but the agreement ends there. Calvinists represent one of 30,000 Bible-only denominations.
The human brain is a machine for coming to conclusions; if it cannot come to conclusions it is rusty. When we hear of a man too clever to believe,... it is like hearing of a nail that was too good to hold down a carpet; or a bolt that was too strong to keep a door shut... Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. As he piles doctrine on doctrine and conclusion on conclusion in the formation of some...philosophy or religion, he is ....becoming more and more human. When he drops one doctrine after another in a refined scepticism, when he declines to tie himself to a system, when he says that he has outgrown definitions... holding no form of creed but contemplating all, then he is by that very process sinking slowly backwards into the vagueness of the vagrant animals and the unconsciousness of the grass¹ . Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded. HereticsGK Chesterton is too good to go unshared. FReegards!
¹ tulips! :-)
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