The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[rwfromkansas]

You seem to think that we head out preaching the 5 points when trying to evangelize. Um.....no. We tell people of their sinfulness and need for God. We invite them to come. Even Calvin said predestination is not something that should be used for evangelism, but should be taught to Christians because it is used in SCripture as comfort for those who are ALREADY BELIEVERS.

Oh, by the way, you think God's covenant of grace is an obtuse and academic doctrine?

My word.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You would be if understood

You would be very afraid if you knew how many folks you have driven away from God.

So Mack what does the bible mean when it speaks of the elect?

He's talking about me.

So Mom what does the bible mean when it says who so ever will?

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Are you ashamed of being one of the tulip folks?

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Looking forward to the day when your name is added. 8~)

Looking foward when you come out of the tulip patch. :)

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

I tried to relate this yesterday (?) with the bond servant story. God chooses to offer this gift to ALL his children. Some accept, some don't. Does he know what we are going to choose? Of course, if he wants to. After we choose to accept Christ it's for keeps though. I'll even bend as far as agreeing with yall that this "free will" issue over at this point. He shows that he still allow us the free will to "back slide" at xs though but will eventually check us and pull us back don't you think

Do you have any scripture that teaches God chooses not to know the future at any time?

If God foreknows those that will never accept Him, then He creates them specifically for hell right? Don't you think if he meant it when he said He wants all men to be saved He could or would do that?

Calvinists tend to think of the OSAS doctrine as a kind of bad twist on good doctrine.

OSAS is often taught as the belief that once you say the prayer you are in no matter what that is bad doctrine.

We teach the Preservation of the Saints. That is that Gods Grace keeps us , we can not keep ourselves.

The elect can stray , but never further than God allows. When we see one backslide it often looks like they were never saved..But when Christ goes out and rounds up the lost sheep , He is glorified for His faithfulness to His promises.

It is after all , all about Him , not us:>)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

As for your church situation, I highly doubt they "tried to take over."

Just like a tulip follower, call a person a lier when you really have no idea of what went on at my church. Does you momma know your on the computer?

BigMack

[rwfromkansas]

You have a second grade defense of Arminianism. Well done. You can come to the front of the class to get a pop after nap time.

Unfortunately, you don't have a Biblical understanding of grace, that it ALL BEGINS FROM DAY ONE WITH GOD'S WORKING IN US.

The bones in Ezekiel come alive ONLY when God commands them to do so and he "puts" in a new heart without them doing anything at all. They do NOTHING but receive God's grace.

Similarly, the NT says it is God who "begins a good work" in us and that God WILL COMPLETE THAT WORK (we can't fall away).

Yes, God calls us to come. But, when we do come, it is because his Spirit works to show us the loveliness of Christ and God's wonderful grace, to fall on our knees and turn away from our sin. It is only by God's work that anyone ever chooses to come.

[RnMomof7]

And we are now back to the question. If He gives to the elect the eyes or the Grace to see their sin and be saved and to unelect He does not give such Grace, and it is this Grace that determines man's fate, then how can this be considered just.

I have heard it said that this is Satan's argument . This come from the premises that all men DESERVE to be saved. That there is something intrinsically worthy of salvation in men , so for God to withhold it is not fair.

This is contrary to scripture that tells us that no man is worthy to be saved.

The definition of JUST ( justice) is giving man what He deserves. All men deserve Hells fire, not one of us deserves to stand in the presence of a Holy God .

All Christians mouth the words that they are saved by the mercy of God.

To be worthy of Mercy one must have to have been judged GUILTY. If you are guilty you do not deserve to be saved.

Mercy is giving a man WHAT HE DOES NOT DESERVE.

Not one of us is worthy of the mercy of God..that is what mercy means ..not giving us what we deserve. . Mercy is in the hands of the judge not the judged.

So Satan tells us if God decided who He will have mercy on , He is not fair.

You may accept that ,I do not, that is why I can celebrate Gods mercy , because I am not worthy of any thing but hell.

By grace I am saved, not by works( or a wise decision )

Can't this man then say, God you did not give me the Grace that was given to the elect, so of course I could not choose your Son, I could only reject Him, because I was wired to reject from the foundation of the world. This does not seem just to me.

Do you see what you are saying here...this is the end product of Arminian theology .

"God you owed me your grace (Gods UNDESERVED favor) , who do you think you are anyway???"

The man will stand without excuse, because every single one of us deserve hell, that is why it is called mercy

[rwfromkansas]

Yes.

But unfortunately, though it provides a nice Arminian talking point, there is NEVER EVER EVER a Scripture used to support the contention that God has excercised his will by giving us a free will and removing the consequences of the fall.

No. In fact, the NT makes it clear that before salvation, we still are "slaves to sin." We still are at 'enmity' with God. We still don't have the spirit and thus are called "natural man"....we can't even understand the things of God (anything....including the gospel)...because they are "spiritually discerned." It is only when God decides to give us the Spirit (which shows that God did not change all people to remove the effects of the fall so we would come and have life in Christ.....only some, his elect have the Spirit come and rescue them from the death that the Fall created) that we come and receive Christ.

Arminians claim that Calvinism makes God a respecter of persons. On the contrary, it makes him simply a savior of people needing saving. He only chooses us out of his grace, not because he sees anything in us.

It is free will theology that creates separate classes of people. It creates a group of people too stupid to see the good of choosing Christ, and a group of people who happened to have something in them better than the other group....they are not on equal footing with the other group...they see good in salvation and choose God because they are "smarter." Isn't this just appalling?????!!!! According to Arminian theology, those who get in heaven are lucky.

According to Calvinism, those who get in heaven are recipients of God's grace.

[rwfromkansas]

I note you do not address the issues of the post, but instead head over to personal attacks.

Typical.

[malakhi]

Only the Free-Will that would allow you to not act according to your nature.

I'm sensing something circular here. Please define what you mean by "your nature".

[malakhi]

the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him

It clearly says PUT , now who would have the ability to PUT Satan into the heart Of Judas?

Yes, "put" is the word used.

Who is doing the "putting"? Read it carefully.

We know from the bible that God remains sovereign over satan

Does anything happen without expressly being willed by God?

[CindyDawg]

Do you have any scripture that teaches God chooses not to know the future at any time?

nah, i just make this stuff up as i go along :')

i'll get back with you after siredward gets home to help me watch these yahoos,ok?

[malakhi]

God is the driver who harden hearts and raise up prophets and is Himself actively involved in our lives.

Terry's pastor's description of free will (see her #2,891) appears to allow a certain compass where man truly has free choices. Dr. E's #2,890 seems to say that there is no place for free choices on our part.

Reading your posts, you appear to fit more with Terry's definition.

[malakhi]

As a creature (and that's all we are apart from Him) man does not have the ability to say "yes" to God.

I find this sentence interesting on a number of levels.

Apart from Him, we do not even have existence, let alone free will. Our very being is contingent upon Him sustaining us.

Now, being created in His image and likeness, we have the ability to make choices, including moral choices. That sinners are incapable of choosing good would seem to be empirically disprovable.

[HarleyD]

Free choices for what?

We can choose to run from God like Jonah and if that is what you are referring to as "free choice" then sure, I would agree. But God is sovereign and will bring us into correction so that His will is accomplished the way He planned it to be so. Just like He did with Jonah.

If by "free choice" you mean we have the ability to accept or reject Christ then I would disagree. Clearly John the Baptist and Jeremiah didn't have this "free choice". They were elected and appointed to carry God's plan.

I don't think salvation varies from person to person. Is this what you believe? If not could you please explain to me how John the Baptist was saved before he was born?

[malakhi]

Would you say that it is impossible that "free will" would be part of God's plan?

Old Saw #2 is really a restatement of Old Saw #1. I look to Scripture for answers, as we've been instructed to do. Do you find anything in Scripture that says man's sovereign will must be a part of God's plan? Instead, I think we find hundreds of passages which attest to God's singular, omniscient, perfect decree as being the sole motivating force in all existence. Within that reality, we recognize our place.

Why is it so difficult to give a straight answer? May I assume, then, that your answer to my question is "YES"?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Hey I bought another piece of commercial real estate, this time from a normal seller. LOL

Its a small office complex, 5000 sq ft.

BigMack

[malakhi]

This does not seem just to me.

I agree.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You seem to think that we head out preaching the 5 points when trying to evangelize. Um.....no.

No I understand you don't tell people your of the tulip, if you did they would run you off their door steps just like they do the jehovah witness.

BigMack