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To: malakhi
Yes.

But unfortunately, though it provides a nice Arminian talking point, there is NEVER EVER EVER a Scripture used to support the contention that God has excercised his will by giving us a free will and removing the consequences of the fall.

No. In fact, the NT makes it clear that before salvation, we still are "slaves to sin." We still are at 'enmity' with God. We still don't have the spirit and thus are called "natural man"....we can't even understand the things of God (anything....including the gospel)...because they are "spiritually discerned." It is only when God decides to give us the Spirit (which shows that God did not change all people to remove the effects of the fall so we would come and have life in Christ.....only some, his elect have the Spirit come and rescue them from the death that the Fall created) that we come and receive Christ.

Arminians claim that Calvinism makes God a respecter of persons. On the contrary, it makes him simply a savior of people needing saving. He only chooses us out of his grace, not because he sees anything in us.

It is free will theology that creates separate classes of people. It creates a group of people too stupid to see the good of choosing Christ, and a group of people who happened to have something in them better than the other group....they are not on equal footing with the other group...they see good in salvation and choose God because they are "smarter." Isn't this just appalling?????!!!! According to Arminian theology, those who get in heaven are lucky.

According to Calvinism, those who get in heaven are recipients of God's grace.
2,949 posted on 04/09/2004 3:00:36 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?" -- Abraham Lincoln)
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To: rwfromkansas
there is NEVER EVER EVER a Scripture used to support the contention that God has excercised his will by giving us a free will and removing the consequences of the fall.

I disagree.

See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you this day, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live (Deuteronomy 30:15-19)

He only chooses us out of his grace, not because he sees anything in us.

And, according to this theology, the fate of those He doesn't choose is???

According to Arminian theology, those who get in heaven are lucky.

I see it exactly the opposite.

2,964 posted on 04/09/2004 3:59:19 PM PDT by malakhi (L'shana haba'ah b'Yerushalayim!)
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