Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[Pharmboy]

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.

[missyme]

Christianity came from Judiasm, Orthodoxy not a new version that is practiced today.

[Revolting cat!]

Dude, all I care is that Scientologizmos make me Clear (tm) after I check out!

[fightin kentuckian]

All you Mormon Bashers can kiss my A&&! I am not one of those shrinking violet turn the other cheek Mormons and I'm going to tell you like it is.

You people who want to be left alone in your own religious beliefs gladly ridicule Mormons and call them names.

Mormons are probably one of the most misunderstood and maligned religions around. Why in the H-E double L do you think the early Mormons settled in a barren desert with a salt water lake. A place that absloutely now one in their right mind wanted. They settled there because they knew that after they had been chased across the country and murdered that no one would bother them in such a place. And through hard work and perserverance, not govt handouts, they prospered and continue today.

Mormons are some of the most upstanding, nice and CONSERVATIVE, VALUES BASED people that you'd ever want to meet. As a matter of fact the typical mormon could be the model freeper and yet you people still ridicule them because of religious beliefs that are protected by the first ammendment, something that is sacred to freepers. What a bunch of hippocrites!

What in the world did a Mormon ever do to you to deserve this treatmemt???? NOT A DAMN THING!!!

If you really want to know about this "Sect" feel free to email me or better yet, politely ask those two young men in for a 7UP next time they knock on your door. They will be happy to answer any all questions.

And by the way, my wife is Jewish. (go figure)

I feel better now. Thank you.

[Pharmboy]

I am glad you feel better.

I have worked with and known Mormons for the past twenty years, and a finer bunch of people I have never met. Please read my posts--in NO WAY have I bashed Mormons--what their hierarchy is doing I find obnoxious. When I find the Jews doing something wrong I call them on it too; I am a Jew. This is not right. Period.

[panaxanax]

“Wasn't that the gentleman that claimed to see treasures underground through rocks, was imprisoned for cheating folks this way, then pulled out of prison by a mob and shot? Seems the religion got off to a rocky start, didn't it.”

“Mormonism (LDS) is a gutter religion with a short past that can be traced to a con artist (LDS was his 3rd or 4th try). It is more similar to the other gutter religion Islam in that it was born out of a desire to take a bunch of small-minded mental deficient and sell them snake oil bottled as "religion" to further the totally secular and sexual aims of the founder.” (spelling corrected)

They did get off to a “rocky start”, but no different than the beginnings of Christianity when Jesus was crucified for his claims/beliefs. Or when Jesus claimed to turn water into wine, walk on water or loaves of bread falling from the sky etc, etc. etc.

Why do you hate Mormons so much? They are, as a religious group, the most patriotic and generous people in America. A Mormon will never turn away a hungry person or a family in need. They maintain their own welfare programs for members and refuse the socialist programs offered by our government (food stamps, etc.). If you’re a member and you get hurt, the church will take care of your family until you get back to work. You are expected to do the same for someone else in the future.

Can you name any other religion that actually formed an army to defend themselves against the U.S. Government’s suppression of their “FREEDOM OF RELIGION”?

The Mormons and the Jews do have a lot in common. Jews were and still are persecuted against everywhere they go. They settled in Israel and stood their ground the same as the Mormons did in Utah. What’s the difference? The Jews live by the saying “Never again”. The Mormons adopted this same reasoning after that mob incident in Illinois. They wanted to be left alone and chose a most undesirable location to live their lives as free men where they could worship God as they wished.

Polygamy is not what the church is about. It was a tool to increase the population of the church. Catholics forbid the use of contraceptives for the same reason. Lots of kids meant lots of new little Catholics. More wives meant more little Mormons.

You may think some of their ideas are out of line and that is your prerogative. I personally don’t think that post-death baptism is going to hurt anyone. They’re dead!! Let the Mormons do what they wish.

[HostileTerritory]

I wonder if the LDS Church would be so even-tempered if a bunch of Jews signed up Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and other Mormon fathers for Starbucks loyalty cards. Imagining that they're enjoying a hot, steaming cup of coffee every morning from their perches up in heaven.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

The Mormons are baptizing dead Jews; essentially making them something that they never wanted to be when they were alive: Mormons or Christians or anything else but Jews.

Let me see if I can explain this to you.

Only in the eyes of the Mormons. In the eyes of most Jews and certainly religious Jews this is about as relevant as someone saying mass for their souls. They are dead. They died as Jews. Nothing changes.

They are not digging up bodies or anything else.

They are taking their memory (for instance, Anne Frank has been baptized posthumously by these people) and changing it among the living.

No they are not. They are not changing their memory one little bit. They are performing a meaningless (unless you believe in it) ritual.

That is offensive to people who hold the dead's memories' dear to them. If you cannot understand that you are hopeless.

As their memory has not been changed in the slightest there is nothing to take offense at.

And on a personal note, I am an atheist who does not believe in the afterlife. So for me, this is all meaningless;

Exactly my point. Unless you believe it is meaningless.

but I do understand how Jews who are serious about Judaism can be bothered by this; they used to force baptism on Jews and put them to the sword if they did not convert.

I am quite aware of that but NO ONE IS BEING CONVERTED!

[HostileTerritory]

Joseph Smith just smiled down upon you... after blowing gently on the foam of his piping hot Caramel Macchiato.

[mlmr]

Let's say that you're a religious Methodist, and some rabbi comes along and says that he now converted a dead relative of yours to Judaism: is that ok with you?


First thing it wouldn't matter to me in the least. Because I don't believe in the Jewish Way. But secondly, the Mormons never say that they convert the dead, they say that they offer the dead the oppertunity to convert ie salvation. So what is the big deal? The Mormons do it to everybody. And the Catholic nuns pray that all the souls world wide will be converted to The One True Church. Am I offended? No. It is not my faith. It has nothing to do with me. It is all about them. No big deal.

[fightin kentuckian]

And another thing, (I only felt better for a little while), have you ever heard a group of Mormons belittle any other religion???? Of course you haven't and you never will. Mormons are too nice to play the religious equivalent of a democrat.

Most of you have no idea who mormons are? You'd think twice about writing the things you write if you realized how many mormons are actually registered freepers. Take a look at the freepers registered in Utah, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona and most other western states. Guestimate about 60% of that and then about 5% of all other states(except Kentucky, lol). And youll have a pretty good idea of how many mormon freepers there are.

I really feel better now.

[HostileTerritory]

"I am quite aware of that but NO ONE IS BEING CONVERTED!"

Just baptized.

By the way, my pastor says that Brigham Young is particularly upset that they're taking Pepsi One off the market so soon and to send up a few cases.

[panaxanax]

Thanks, you beat to it by a couple of minutes. I was raised Mormon and learned to overlook the faults of those that didn't understand our beliefs and how we came about them.

The 3 most important things I learned was:

#1, Don't mess with my family or you will you experience the worst ass-whupping you'll ever get!

#2: Provide for yourself and do not depend on anyone to do your work for you.

#3: Be willing to die for your country and your family.

I think that the reason Mormons catch so much flack here on Freerepublic is that they're jealous of our strong family values and that we were the first "freepers" way back in the mid 1800's. Sounds like you and I would have been good candidates for the Mormon Battalion!

[HostileTerritory]

"#1, Don't mess with my family or you will you experience the worst ass-whupping you'll ever get!"

Given the issue we're talking about here, you can cut the irony with a knife.

I respect your family's faith and I abhor the Mormon-bashing that goes on here and in the media. That said, I think they're courting disaster with this practice. It's needlessly insensitive and disrespectful, and I don't see why Jews, Catholics, and other affected family members should just "get over it" because they don't adhere to the theology behind it.

[F16Fighter]

I imagine the Big Guy upstairs is laughing so hysterically at this whole stupid thing, tears must be running down His face. For MORE than one reason...

[Pharmboy]

And history may very well say 100 years from now (if a Mormon is writing the history) that Anne Frank was baptised a Mormon. Will anyone ask when? I do not think so.

Not so meaningless anymore, eh?

[Pharmboy]

For many of the living, this is no laughing matter; and to presume that you know what He is thinking...

[F16Fighter]

"For many of the living, this is no laughing matter; and to presume that you know what He is thinking..."

So if I "baptize" Moses posthumously, I guess that will change the entire dynamic of God's eternal resting place for him?

I will indeed "presume" to "know what He is thinking".

[Pharmboy]

You appear to be ignorant of the right of people to be left alone--while alive and after they pass on. Each religion should be respectful of the others and stay in their own sandbox. Why is that so hard to grasp?