Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[Pharmboy]

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.

[Wrigley]

Thanks for the refresher.

[luvtheconstitution]

You are incorrect when you assume Mormons are saying they converted anyone posthumously. They have only done the work for the dead, should the deceased decide to accept that work or not. That's substantially different from your interpretation of what this work is all about.

[Dead Dog]

Hey, maybe Jews did make it here. That's not beyond belief.

Golden Spectacles brought down to Earth by an angle named Morony to mystically reveal the secrets of the misunderstood bible. Spectacles, that just happened to be loaners, and had to be returned before anyone else could verify the evidence... THAT is a little much.

[Polybius]

Here--lemme make it easy for you: leave me alone and leave my dead relatives alone. Don't use their names for religious purposes other than the religion they died with. Don't put any check marks near their names, nuthin'. Thank yew.

"Leave you alone"?

Ummmmm.......Pharmboy, this is your thread.

You posted it.

You're the one who brought up this entire subject for debate on FreeRepublic.

I'm debating.

I have stated several times that I am not a Mormon and I do not belive in Mormon doctrine. Your reply to my question is therefore a non sequitur.

Would you care to take a shot at actually answering my question in Post 325

[Redwood71]

Local court records show Smith was charged with, and convicted of, disorderly conduct for so-called money-digging activities: using supposedly supernatural stones to dig for treasure. Some argue associated court documents were forged or alterered to cast Smith in a unfair light; others have argued that such "treasure digging" was a common form of folk magic and that Smith was not unique in its practice.

This happened in the same town that he was chased out of for destroying the press you mentioned. When he came back, the same people, already torked at him, shot him as he jumped from a second story jail cell window. At that point, there was question as to whether he was dead. They put him up in front of a tree, and shot him a few more times to make sure.

He destroyed the press because it didn't say good things about him. He just chose the wrong town to do that.

Merry Christmas

[Wrigley]

Thanks for the refresher.

And much like modern day horror movies, you can never be too sure the bad guy is dead.

[Dead Dog]

I think you are right on.

[Spiff]

Local court records show Smith was charged with, and convicted of, disorderly conduct for so-called money-digging activities: using supposedly supernatural stones to dig for treasure. Some argue associated court documents were forged or alterered to cast Smith in a unfair light; others have argued that such "treasure digging" was a common form of folk magic and that Smith was not unique in its practice. This happened in the same town that he was chased out of for destroying the press you mentioned. When he came back, the same people, already torked at him, shot him as he jumped from a second story jail cell window. At that point, there was question as to whether he was dead. They put him up in front of a tree, and shot him a few more times to make sure. He destroyed the press because it didn't say good things about him. He just chose the wrong town to do that.

Your synopsis of the events is so anti-historical and non-factual that I actually laughed. Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up?

[Hat-Trick]

OK...Joseph Smith didn't personally smash the printing press, but he did personally order the printing press to be destroyed. From "The History of The Church, Vol. 6":

"You are here commanded to destroy the printing press from whence issues the Nauvoo Expositor, and pi the type of said printing establishment; and if any resistance be offered to your execution of this order by the owners or others, demolish the house; and if anyone threatens you or the Mayor or the officers of the city, arrest who threaten you, and fail not to execute this order without delay, and make due return hereon."

By Order of the City Council,
Joseph Smith, Mayor

(History of the Church, vol. 6, page 448)

[Aliska]

These are all action of spiritual charity done for unselfish reasons. I see no need for anybody to feel insulted.

I don't know if it would be considered spiritual charity or an act of spiritual aggression. The implication of the baptismal work (sometimes on already baptized deceased Christians) is that the deceased person's religion or faith was insufficient to gain them entrance into heaven. That's what people are probably reacting to. My religion is more powerful than yours yada yada.

Personally, I would rather people not pray for me unless my spirit is in agreement with the desired outcome of the prayer, like, you know, the bible verse which says, "If two or more of you *agree* on touching any thing . . ." The *agreement* is sometimes lacking in certain forms of intecessory prayers or works which may be construed as not respecting a person's spiritual boundaries.

Then there is a possible occultic aspect of the whole business. Who really knows what powers from which realm are unleashed in some kinds of prayers or religious works? We have very specific directions in the bible to agree and to ask the Father in Jesus' name. If people pray for an outcome or to a deity with which I do not agree for me or mine, I would rather not have the prayer.

I have no objection to anyone of good will participating in the generic or specific kinds of charitable and healing prayers on this forum for living persons, and in the case of the deceased only that they are in peace and will reach heaven, the real heaven spoken of in scripture, not a reinvented heaven on the part of a reinvented religion that does not square with everything that Jesus taught.

[Redwood71]

://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/escape.htm

This may help. You'll notice the charges included larceny which was attributed to the to the use of stones to find treasure, but didn't. The records of that time tell many different stories depending which ones you wish to believe. He was also charged with treason, theft, buglary and other things. He escaped prior to going to court for it by getting the guards drunk when they were transporting him and others, and was killed upon his return. Any arguments there?

[ZULU]

The Mormons were not looked on favorably by the Protestant majority for a whole host of reasons. America was always pretty tolerant of Protestant groups in general. The issue of plural marriages as well as incidents involving mutual acts of violence did much to create friction between the Mormons and other Protestants.

Smith was hardly a non-violent sort of fellow himself and Brigham Young, his successor, was worse. He took control of the Mormon Church by threatening Smith's widown and child - Smith's presumptive successor.

Pacifism was never a Mormon virtue.

Other groups like the Amish also had a tradition of exclusiveness and separation from the society at large, but had no real problem with their neighbors. Despite their culturally unique characteristics, their pacifism generated respect for the most part.

According to the books I have read on Mountain Meadows, only ONE person paid the price for the incident and he was an inconsequential fall guy. The order to take out that party of peaceful settlers - men, women and children, can have been given by one person and one person alone - Brigham Young. The Society of the Saints was not a democratic one and Young ruled it with an iron hand. It is hard to believe that a large group of Mormons would have taken the initiative to commit such a horrendous act without direction from above.

A recent attempt by the relatives of people who were killed there to have their graves exhumed and a monument erected
(1998) were foiled by the Governor of Utah who ordered the recovered remains re-interred and all further exhumations stopped, in violation of Utah state law which calls for a forensic exam on all human remains.

I don't really know the intimate details of the incidents you cite. I DO know that over 200 men, women and children were murdered by a large force of Mormons, masquerading as Indians, and the wealth of the wagon train, which was the greatest of any ever sent west, and which included such mundane items as bloodied women's and children's clothing ,was distributed among the saints.

I ALSO know that the Saints imported a large number of naive working class individuals, primarily from the British Isles to their little "Kingdom" and that a substantial number of them separated from the Church, despite threats and violence from Mormon enforcers. The reason Nevada exist today as a separate state is due to the presence there of large numbers of these fugitive Mormons who wanted no part of inclusion in the Saint's Empire of Utah.

But don't take MY word for it. I haven't been to Utah and never even met a Mormon. But I did read "Massacre at Mountain Meadows" and the more recent "American Massacre", both of which purport to detail the background of the Mormon Church and the Massacre, and from which I have gleaned the information presented above.

If any of it is not correct, you of course, are free to refute it.

[ZULU]

Read "The Book of Mormon". Its not just about a small group of Israelites being driven off course.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

But acceptance another religion can only be made while one is alive and conscious.

Thank you. That was my understanding. I am glad to see that it was not incorrect.

[Spiff]

Haun´s Mill Massacre


On October 30, 1838, segments of the Missouri militia attacked a settlement of Latter-day Saints at Jacob Haun´s mill, located on Shoal Creek in eastern Caldwell County, Missouri. Because the attack was unprovoked in a time of truce, had no specific authorization, and was made by a vastly superior force with unusual brutality, it has come to be known as "The Haun´s Mill Massacre." It was one incident in the conflict between the Missourians and the Latter-day Saints that resulted in the LDS expulsion from the state in 1839 (see Missouri Conflict).


Tensions had been building up ever since the Latter-day Saints began moving into Caldwell and Daviess counties in central Missouri in 1836. From August to October 1838, incidents of overt conflict had grown dramatically. Rumors abounded that the Mormons planned to "despoil" the Missourians and take their land. Specifically, some believed that the Haun´s Mill´s population threatened to spill over into non-Mormon Livingston County. Outbursts of violence led Governor Lilburn W. Boggs on October 27 to issue an "Extermination Order," demanding that the Latter-day Saints leave the state or be exterminated. It is uncertain whether this order was a catalyst for the attack, but it is clear that both the Latter-day Saints and the Missourians believed that their rights had been violated and their existence threatened.


Thirty to forty LDS families were at Haun´s Mill when some 200 to 250 militia from Livingston, Daviess, and Carroll counties, acting under Colonel Thomas Jennings, marched against the village. Assuming that an earlier truce still held, the residents were surprised by the late afternoon attack. Church leader David Evans´ call for "quarter" was ignored, and the villagers were forced to flee for safety. The Mormon women and children fled south across a stream into the woods, while the men gathered in the blackSmith shop, but found it a poor place for defense because the Missourians were able to fire through the widely spaced logs directly into the group huddled inside.


Seventeen Latter-day Saints and one friendly non-Mormon were killed. Another thirteen were wounded, including one woman and a seven-year-old boy. No Missouri militiamen were killed, though three were wounded. Certain deaths were particularly offensive to the Saints. Seventy-eight-year-old Thomas McBride surrendered his musket to militiaman Jacob Rogers, who shot him, then hacked his body with a corn knife. William Reynolds discovered ten-year-old Sardius Smith hiding under the bellows and blew the top of the child´s head off.


While women cared for the wounded, the men remained in hiding during the night. The dead were thrown into an unfinished well and lightly covered with dirt and straw. A few Missourians returned the next day, took plunder, and warned the remaining Saints to leave Missouri.


The 1838–39 Missouri judicial proceedings investigating the "Mormon War" largely ignored the events at Haun´s Mill, but Latter-day Saints wrote numerous, bitter accounts. The Haun´s Mill Massacre became embedded in the LDS psyche as an epitome of the cruel persecutions that they had endured.





ALMA R. BLAIR


Bibliography

Blair, Alma R. "The Haun´s Mill Massacre." BYU Studies 13 (Autumn 1972):62–67.


History of Caldwell and Livingston Counties, Missouri. St. Louis, 1886.


Johnson, Clark V. "Missouri Persecutions: The Petition of Isaac Leary." BYU Studies 23 (Winter 1983):94–103.


LeSueur, Stephen C. The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri. Columbia, Mo., 1987.


Times and Seasons 1 (1840):145–50.

[luvtheconstitution]

You are exactly right - nobody is being converted by the proxy work done for the deceased. The baptisms are performed for deceased individuals. If the deceased wants to accept that work, they can. If not, so be it.

Additionally, the Mormon church does not have a paid clergy, and men, as well as women do the proxy work.

[Polybius]

I don't know if it would be considered spiritual charity or an act of spiritual aggression. The implication of the baptismal work (sometimes on already baptized deceased Christians) is that the deceased person's religion or faith was insufficient to gain them entrance into heaven.

Yep. That's pretty much the way most religions see it, isn't it?

That's why Catholic and Protestant missionaries have been preaching around the World for centuries.

Maybe the Athenians had the right idea. As mentioned by St. Paul, the Athenians had erected a temple to "The Unknown God". The Athenians ensured they had all their bases covered.

[Hat-Trick]

I think you are confusing or mixing the facts of two or more separate incidents.

First, the URL you gave references his being jailed in Missouri, several years prior to his death in jail in Nauvoo, Illinois. In neither of these incidents was he charged with treason or treasure digging. There is some historical data that suggests he was charged with treasure digging in Bainbridge, New York, in 1826, prior to his foundation of the mormon religion.

[restornu]

What I've seen is that unless those who are practicing polygamy get uppitty and make noise, the behavior is condoned.

Untrue. If someone is proved to be practicing polygamy they are immediately excommunicated. Make up all the silly stories you want about it, but that is the plain truth.

He knows that!

He loves practicing to distortion!

[Saundra Duffy]

I'm kind of new to the LDS faith. I heard about this massacre by reading "The Work and the Glory" - I think I'm in the 7th book of the series. Anyway, I was born in Missouri and I'm half afraid to do my geneology because no doubt my RED NECK relatives were part of the anti Mormon angry mobs. I wouldn't doubt it a bit. I was raised to detest Catholics and Mormons alike.