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Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms
NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

Posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:40 AM PST by Pharmboy

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.


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To: redhead
If I shake salt and pepper on a list of Jewish names, and I say they have the option to become salt and pepper church members exactly how did I infuriate someone?? Getting upset over this is soooo much nonsense. Lists of names are somehow out of limits now? I would be more infuriated if the IRS has my name and they do.
341 posted on 12/22/2003 12:39:47 PM PST by Goreknowshowtocheat
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To: frgoff
voluntarily returned to the United States when a trumped up warrant was issued for his arrest,

Oh, so he really didn't destroy a printing press that was not his.

342 posted on 12/22/2003 12:41:00 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Wrigley
Let's get specific. The press was destroyed because the publishers were calling for the death of Joseph Smith and other church leaders.
343 posted on 12/22/2003 12:42:07 PM PST by frgoff
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To: Spiff
OK. Keep the mormon party line.
344 posted on 12/22/2003 12:43:00 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: TontoKowalski
They can do all the baptising of the dead that they want, but I think non-participants of their religion have every right to be PO'd when they DOCUMENT such happenings.

They certainly have the right to be PO'd. Why, you have the right to be PO'd, if your neighbor rips up his rose bush to plant tomatos.

But your neighbor has the right to rip up his rose bush and the Mormons have the right to perform a ritual for your deceased grandfather and tell people that they've done it.

345 posted on 12/22/2003 12:43:42 PM PST by Tribune7 (David Limbaugh never said his brother had a "nose like a vacuum cleaner")
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To: Spiff
Your faith is in a false Jesus though. Your faith will not save you.
346 posted on 12/22/2003 12:43:57 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Spiff
PSSST:

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A stone written in a language only a backwoods illiterate can decipher through a draped cloth. A belief that the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel settled America and the Native Indians wiped them out. I could go on and on.

If you want to be a Mormon and that makes you happy - fine.
But don't force your beliefs on other people, even dead ones - this "vicarious baptism" rite is the wierdest idea I have ever heard. But then, that's Mormonism!!
347 posted on 12/22/2003 12:45:24 PM PST by ZULU (Remember the Alamo)
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To: frgoff
At least you admited that he destroyed property that wasn't his own.

And I don't recall the paper calling for Joe's death.
348 posted on 12/22/2003 12:45:25 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Spiff
Sorry, your revised gospel doesn't trump Gods word in the Holy Bible. Live your dream, The only comment I agree with is your last, "by their fruits you shall know them."

end discussion.
349 posted on 12/22/2003 12:45:36 PM PST by DeathfromBelow
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To: Pharmboy
Ahhhh...someone who believes that individuals should be harrased BEYOND the grave. Lemme guess: you're a telemarketer...no wait...I got it: You produce the spam that clogs my mailbox! Yeah--that's the ticket--LOWEST MORTGAGE RATES NOW. That's you, right?

I started laughing but then it dawned on me some shyster is going to try to create earthly jurisprudence for the spiriutal world

350 posted on 12/22/2003 12:46:29 PM PST by Tribune7 (David Limbaugh never said his brother had a "nose like a vacuum cleaner")
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To: Wrigley
I'm comfortable letting God make that determination. As to your opinion on the matter, well, thanks for sharing.
351 posted on 12/22/2003 12:47:49 PM PST by frgoff
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To: Wrigley
There is only one G-d and everyone is going to answer to one only, it doesn't matter who Muslims and Mormoms and Hindus worship they will have to answer to the one Christians and Jews beleive in.
352 posted on 12/22/2003 12:47:57 PM PST by missyme
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To: Wrigley
Hello, he was the Mayor. And yes, the paper was calling for his death. BTW, the warrant was not for destroying the press, but for sedition.
353 posted on 12/22/2003 12:49:44 PM PST by frgoff
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To: frgoff
Sedition, I forgot about that charge. One more thing Joe was guilty of.
354 posted on 12/22/2003 12:51:15 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Wrigley
Actually he was in jail because he smashed a printing press of someone who was publishing things that made Joe look bad.

Nauvoo Mayor Joseph Smith smashed nothing. The commanding general of the Nauvoo Legion, the largest state militia in Illinois - smashed nothing. He was acquitted of the charge two times, once before an tribunal with many church members and again before a second court without church members. He was illegally demanded to stand before a third court in Carthage where he and his brother were murdered by a black-faced lynch mob who shot and killed them while they were waiting in the jail.

Do you black your face too before you starting posting this garbage about Joseph Smith?

355 posted on 12/22/2003 12:52:12 PM PST by Spiff (Have you committed one random act of thoughtcrime today?)
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To: frgoff
I wouldn't be so comfortable if I were you. I pray often for God to make mormons uncomfortable with their view of Himself. Then, and only then, will they know the true God.
356 posted on 12/22/2003 12:53:05 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Spiff
Are you as a mormon bringing race into this now?
357 posted on 12/22/2003 12:53:50 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Polybius
Here--lemme make it easy for you: leave me alone and leave my dead relatives alone. Don't use their names for religious purposes other than the religion they died with. Don't put any check marks near their names, nuthin'. Thank yew.
358 posted on 12/22/2003 12:53:50 PM PST by Pharmboy (History's greatest agent for democracy: The US Armed Forces)
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To: ZULU
Son of God born by a virgin
Killed by Romans as a common criminal
Raised from the dead afterward?

The early leader of this church a smelly fisherman and his brother?

If you want to be a Chrisitan and that makes you happy, fine. But don't force your beliefs on other people. This whole God kills his son for man thing is the weirdest idea I've ever heard, but then, that's Christianity.
359 posted on 12/22/2003 12:53:52 PM PST by frgoff
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To: missyme
Jesus is my Redeemer, my Savior, the Creator. (I'm a Mormon.)
360 posted on 12/22/2003 12:54:43 PM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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